So, this is why they hate us - Caution Mature Content!

[Makalakumu]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2348133041403172295&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=undefined

What do you think?

 

[crushing]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2348133041403172295&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=undefined

What do you think?

Why 'they' hate 'us'?

I don't think it's a very good re-enactment of the Battle of Badr.

 

[Makalakumu]

Is this a good way to "win their hearts and minds"?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why 'they' hate 'us'?

I don't think it's a very good re-enactment of the Battle of Badr.

Doesn't look much like the Crusades or the Crusaders taking Jerusalem either.

 

[Makalakumu]

Doesn't look much like the Crusades or the Crusaders taking Jerusalem either.

I could easily post those pictures, but they would be against MT policy. Do a google search and you'll find that stuff.

Anyway, does anyone have a problem with beating the crap out of kids throwing rocks? How about the guy getting off on this **** while taping it?

 

[crushing]

Is this a good way to "win their hearts and minds"?

I don't think so.

Here is more information about that video:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4705482.stm

British military spokesman Flight Lieutenant Chris Thomas, based in Basra, said: "We hope that the good relations that the multi-national forces have worked very hard to develop won't be adversely affected by this material."

To you point of winning hearts and minds:

The secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, Sir Iqbal Sacranie, said: "These pictures are quite appalling and demonstrate a deeply worrying breakdown in army discipline.
"Incidents like this cause enormous damage to our standing in the Muslim world and also place those British troops who are carrying out their duties conscientiously in greater peril."

 

[Makalakumu]

Part of me understands this from what the soldiers may be feeling. I can see how the anger can build and build and build, especially when the intentions are good.

I look at something like this and I just want to get our guys out of this mess. I can't even imagine the kind of turmoil these soldiers feel...and they will continue to feel even after they come home.

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps I can answer this as I know the guys involved.
Firstly this happened in 2004, it's not recent. Secondly nobody who is sat in their nice comfy sittingrooms back home frankly has the right to judge these soldiers.No it shouldn't have happened but this is a war, can anyone honestly say they would behave legally and properly in a war? We'd like to think we would but reality is totally different trust me. These soldiers had already lost members of their regiment out there, they had been constantly bombarded with stones every time they went on patrol, there was a constant fear of snipers and suicide bombers. These are the young people putting their lives on the line every day, it isn't an academic polite argument on an internet forum for them. They get the fear, the lack of sleep, the very poor living conditions (at the time, things slightly better now) the constant living on the nerves, of war. You can imagine this but whatever you imagine the reality is worse. The person filming was said to have been laughing, inexcusable to us sat in out homes but understandable given the situation. If your mates had been killed, blown to pieces in front of you and you were likely to be the next one going home in a body bag can you imagine how he felt? He is is a decent young man but one that was in a war, unless you have been there you can't understand how that changes you.

I know you have concerns over your soldiers dying, ours are too. This week five more came home in coffins. We ask the impossible of these young people and when they fail to meet our standards like this we criticise and berate them. Yes the deed was wrong but who can put their hand up and truthfully say I would react better in this situation? Maybe you would BUT maybe you wouldn't.

 

[Makalakumu]

Perhaps I can answer this as I know the guys involved. Firstly this happened in 2004, it's not recent. Secondly nobody who is sat in their nice comfy sittingrooms back home frankly has the right to judge these soldiers.No it shouldn't have happened but this is a war, can anyone honestly say they would behave legally and properly in a war? We'd like to think we would but reality is totally different trust me. These soldiers had already lost members of their regiment out there, they had been constantly bombarded with stones every time they went on patrol, there was a constant fear of snipers and suicide bombers. These are the young people putting their lives on the line every day, it isn't an academic polite argument on an internet forum for them. They get the fear, the lack of sleep, the very poor living conditions (at the time, things slightly better now) the constant living on the nerves, of war. You can imagine this but whatever you imagine the reality is worse. The person filming was said to have been laughing, inexcusable to us sat in out homes but understandable given the situation. If your mates had been killed, blown to pieces in front of you and you were likely to be the next one going home in a body bag can you imagine how he felt? He is is a decent young man but one that was in a war, unless you have been there you can't understand how that changes you.

I understand where you are coming from. These guys are under incredible stress and are acting out on it. Your question is valid...would anyone have done anything different? It's hard to say until you are there. The one thing to keep in mind is that these young men put their pants on in the morning just like everyone else and they are incredibly human just like anyone else.

We ask the impossible of these young people and when they fail to meet our standards like this we criticise and berate them.

We are asking the impossible of them. I look at something like this and I just want to get our folks out of there. It's like knocking a hornet's nest down and instead of running away, we walk up and kick it again.

 

[Tez3]

I understand where you are coming from. These guys are under incredible stress and are acting out on it. Your question is valid...would anyone have done anything different? It's hard to say until you are there. The one thing to keep in mind is that these young men put their pants on in the morning just like everyone else and they are incredibly human just like anyone else.
We are asking the impossible of them. I look at something like this and I just want to get our folks out of there. It's like knocking a hornet's nest down and instead of running away, we walk up and kick it again.

I am really glad you understand! I wouldn't defend their actions but I will defend them rigorously! One of the regiments the Devon and Dorsets came back from their tour in Iraq this week, they lost guys as well, in town on Friday night we had loads of fights we don't usually have when they are here. It doesn't end when they come back, nerves are strained and people are stressed. The families are also stressed with them coming back as well as them being away. It's very difficult to settle back for all concerned. We still have a Brigade away with many of my students, friends and parents of the children I teach there, they've only been gone two weeks.One dead already. I dread the news and pray every day for them and all the others. sorry have to stop, it makes me cry. I'll come back later.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I could easily post those pictures, but they would be against MT policy. Do a google search and you'll find that stuff.

Anyway, does anyone have a problem with beating the crap out of kids throwing rocks? How about the guy getting off on this **** while taping it?

First HUH???

Second, yes I have a problem with it, I also have a problem with people being taken hostage and killed for no other reason tham they are not from the region to. There are 2 sides to this and although I do not condone what you posted and I certainly do not agree with the narration of the clip at all. Neither you nor I are there so to judge all acts from the safety of our homes while banging away at our computers is not exactly right either.

But if you start a post with "So, this is why they hate us" and base it on the video given you are WAY over simplifying the situation and one should never do that in the Middle East. There is a lot of history behind this hatred.

 

[Makalakumu]

Second, yes I have a problem with it, I also have a problem with people being taken hostage and killed for no other reason tham they are not from the region to. There are 2 sides to this and although I do not condone what you posted and I certainly do not agree with the narration of the clip at all.

Sure there are two sides, but which is the chicken and which is the egg?

Neither you nor I are there so to judge all acts from the safety of our homes while banging away at our computers is not exactly right either.

I disagree. I think that people need to see this stuff in order to see exactly what war is all about. People need to know that this is nasty and brutal and it isn't the sanitized "smart" war that is portrayed by the media. And for that, its going to take some people on this side of the world, banging away on their computers, in order to get the message out.

Veitnam showed what Americans would do if they had war beamed into their living rooms. IMHO, we need that again.

But if you start a post with "So, this is why they hate us" and base it on the video given you are WAY over simplifying the situation and one should never do that in the Middle East. There is a lot of history behind this hatred.

While I agree that the title of this thread is misleading and that it leaves out alot of history, lets just back up a bit and look at what happened. Violence has been escalating ever since we invaded. Wouldn't you think that incidents like this would provoke people to violence? Especially if they are widespread? Would you agree that those kids in question, now are a very tangible reason to hate us?

 

[michaeledward]

I thought one of the reasons our country went to the all volunteer army is so that we would have professional soldiers for times of armed conflict. Professionals are supposed to meet standards of behavior. Those standards are in place for the times of stress. The soldiers are supposed to be trained to react correctly in incidents involving stress.

The behavior displayed in that video is completely unprofessional. It is completely against the training the soldiers recieved. If we allow standards of behavior to be ignored because "our buddy got killed', what is the use of having standards?

Yes, the environment is stressful. But that is exactly what the military trains to encounter; stressful situations. Stress is not an acceptable excuse. Unprofessional behavior should result in severe criminal sentencing for those who took the unprofessional action.

England is serving three years -- far too light a sentence for the impact of her crime.
Garner is serving ten years. Perhaps, this is sufficient.
Baker pleaded guilty to avoid the death penalty in a case of rape of a 14 year old and murder of the girl and her familiy.


If the stress of warfare is overwhelming, then hold the leaders accountable. Our military is lead by civilian leaders who through their orders put these soldiers in stressful situations. For years we had our President proclaiming cheerleading statements about how wonderfully the war is going, but not having any actual plans about who was going to do what, when, to achieve the desired results. Objectives were littered about without priority. (See State of Denial - Woodward).


We can hope this behavior is an abhorration. But if it is not . . . . . .?

 

[Makalakumu]

I thought one of the reasons our country went to the all volunteer army is so that we would have professional soldiers for times of armed conflict. Professionals are supposed to meet standards of behavior. Those standards are in place for the times of stress. The soldiers are supposed to be trained to react correctly in incidents involving stress.

The behavior displayed in that video is completely unprofessional. It is completely against the training the soldiers recieved. If we allow standards of behavior to be ignored because "our buddy got killed', what is the use of having standards?

Yes, the environment is stressful. But that is exactly what the military trains to encounter; stressful situations. Stress is not an acceptable excuse. Unprofessional behavior should result in severe criminal sentencing for those who took the unprofessional action.

England is serving three years -- far too light a sentence for the impact of her crime.
Garner is serving ten years. Perhaps, this is sufficient.
Baker pleaded guilty to avoid the death penalty in a case of rape of a 14 year old and murder of the girl and her familiy.


If the stress of warfare is overwhelming, then hold the leaders accountable. Our military is lead by civilian leaders who through their orders put these soldiers in stressful situations. For years we had our President proclaiming cheerleading statements about how wonderfully the war is going, but not having any actual plans about who was going to do what, when, to achieve the desired results. Objectives were littered about without priority. (See State of Denial - Woodward).


We can hope this behavior is an abhorration. But if it is not . . . . . .?

Good point, Michael. My next post was going to be about professionalism and our expectations. You beat me to it.

I think that it is important that we attempt to understand the stress of the situation, but we also need to keep in mind our expectations.

If these two things conflict so much, then we might need to reevaluate our use of soldiers to solve the worlds ills.

There just may be a better way...

 

[Makalakumu]

England is serving three years -- far too light a sentence for the impact of her crime.
Garner is serving ten years. Perhaps, this is sufficient.

Regarding Abu Ghraib and notion of how prevelent this stuff is in general, I think that we need to understand our governments policy for treating certain people over there.

Abuse and torture have been outsourced and there is no clear chain of command in places where it is occuring. One can think one is breaking the law, but actually be breaking it because of what is going on in one's surroundings.

Check out this video...

Iraq For Sale

I think people should see this before we start handing down long sentances to our soldiers. What they did is wrong, but the situation is far from black and white. We need to be careful that we don't start creating scapegoats.

The real criminals, IMHO, are the people who instituted this foul system. these people are war criminals and they should be tried for their crimes.

 

[michaeledward]

We certainly should be looking further up the chain of command than Garner (Grainer?). I know General Karpinski got hung out to dry by the team. I believe she was made a scape goat. From Bush on down, their hands were washed at Garner ... and Karpinski got spanked because she didn't know.

It's a story I find hard to believe.

But further, I think the United States military does not have a clear protest chain for ethical dilemma's.

I may be way off base, but I believe the Israeli army has a much better system for soldiers to object to an order based on the morality of that order. One difference is that the service in the Israeli military is compulsory.

I am getting way out on the limb of things I know, think I know, and believe. If someone has more credible information, I'll listen and learn.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sure there are two sides, but which is the chicken and which is the egg?

It really depends, how far back in time do you want to go?

I disagree. I think that people need to see this stuff in order to see exactly what war is all about. People need to know that this is nasty and brutal and it isn't the sanitized "smart" war that is portrayed by the media. And for that, its going to take some people on this side of the world, banging away on their computers, in order to get the message out.

Veitnam showed what Americans would do if they had war beamed into their living rooms. IMHO, we need that again.

What I said "Neither you nor I are there so to judge all acts from the safety of our homes while banging away at our computers is not exactly right either. " and the above response are 2 different things.

I said we couldn’t judge since we are not there. Based solely on the video you posted it is very disturbing. But we have no idea what happened before that. So to judge actions such as those in a war zone with out the entire story is rather difficult.

I could be wrong but I think you are saying that people need to see what is going on so they know the reality of it and I am all for reality. In general people do not want to know about such things because it may cause them to change their views and beliefs.

 

[Cryozombie]

When a solider is sent to FIGHT AND KILL other human beings, he is TAUGHT as part of his PROFESSIONAL TRAINING AS A VOLLUNTEER to de-humanise the enemy so that he does NOT look at the people trying to kill him as a human being with a wife, and kids and a house... etc... or else he will not be able to do his job.

These incidents are side effects of that training. Its an extreme version of rasing a child with one thought: to love cookies... and then saying to them Dont Eat Cookies. They BEAT the idea that the enemy is "the enemy" into your head, and you dont see "people" anymore... you see the enemy.
​

 

[michaeledward]

Which is why we have civilians in charge of deploying the military. And for six years, we have had criminally incompetent leadership of our military.

 

[Makalakumu]

When a solider is sent to FIGHT AND KILL other human beings, he is TAUGHT as part of his PROFESSIONAL TRAINING AS A VOLLUNTEER to de-humanise the enemy so that he does NOT look at the people trying to kill him as a human being with a wife, and kids and a house... etc... or else he will not be able to do his job.

These incidents are side effects of that training. Its an extreme version of rasing a child with one thought: to love cookies... and then saying to them Dont Eat Cookies. They BEAT the idea that the enemy is "the enemy" into your head, and you dont see "people" anymore... you see the enemy.​

While I understand the realpolitik behind this, I think it is morally repugnant. This is mind control.

Margaret Singer's conditions for mind control
Psychologist Margaret Singer, using the work of Lifton, described in her book "Cults in our Midst" six conditions, which would, she says, create an atmosphere where thought reform is possible. [2]. Singer sees no need for physical coercion or violence.

• controlling a person's time and environment, leaving no time for thought
• creating a sense of powerlessness, fear and dependency
• manipulating rewards and punishments to suppress former social behaviour
• manipulating rewards and punishments to elicit the desired behaviour
• creating a closed system of logic which makes dissenters feel as if something was wrong with them
• keeping recruits unaware about any agenda to control or change them

If we had a military that was truly meant for "defending" this country, would we have to do this to people?

I think we need to question the entire system if this is the result.​