Siamese Origin of Okinawan Striking

[Makalakumu]

http://irkrs.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/siamese-boxing-original-source-of.html

Indo-China


Satisfied that I had successfully located the original sources from which came Tegumi, Torite and Kata, my efforts to trace the origins of Ti’gwa proved a bit more challenging. Exhausting my search of Chinese, Korean and Japanese sources, and considering the possibility the plebeian art may have evolved indigenously, I remembered Kerr’s comments and was pleasantly surprised to learn that for more than a thousand years both China and India had influenced the development of local fighting arts in SE Asia. Henceforth I widened the scope of my study. In spite of the many remarkable fighting traditions I found in Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines, etc., none seemed to resemble the simplicity of Ti’gwa. The only other culture in which I could locate a tradition of similar qualities, within reasonable geographical proximity and contemporary historical timeframes, was the old Kingdom of Siam and its ancient art of boxing, Muay Boran.




If it has Feathers, Quacks & Flies...it’s a Duck! 


I learned that Muay Boran [lit. ancient boxing] -using the very same tools as Ti’gwa (i.e clenched fists, head, elbows, knees, shins and feet)- was hugely popular especially during Thailand’s old Kingdom of Siam Period. Adding to the plausibility of this theory, I also discovered that Ryukyu ships had vigorously plied the waters between the two cultures, conducting a bustling commerce, for more than two hundred years during the old Ryukyu Kingdom Period! While all this seemed quite promising at the time, I still had a problem seeing the link between Muay Boran and Ti-gwa.




At first glance the differences appeared obvious; after all, everyone knows that the Kingdom of Siam became The Kingdom of Thailand and Muay Boran became Muay Thai [Kick boxing]. Muay Thai, in its modern form, looks nothing like modern sport Karate, and vice-versa! Try as I might, I still was having difficulty reconciling the precise simplicity ofkumite and dynamic elegance of kata performance with the modern sport of Muay Thai! Perhaps I was focusing too much upon Thai fighters dressed in silk boxing trunks, wearing gloves, a liberal rubbing of pre-fight liniment and wailing on each other in a ring, which allowed knees and elbows!

Who would have thought that the origin of karate strike was Muay Boran....or the ancestral art to Muay Thai!

 

[TimoS]

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. There really is no way to be certain. Many martial arts have had an influence in one another. Considering that we don't even know for a fact who the teachers of e.g. Higaonna or Uechi REALLY were, how can anyone say that DEFINITELY the striking in ti came from Siam? I'll read the posting more closely tomorrow, but IMO it's impossible to be certain about this

 

[K-man]

I think there is a huge amount of conjecture here. One could never dismiss the influence of one country's fighting style to another, especially where there are links as in this case trade, but the fact is there is no evidence to link Muay Boran to the Okinawan system of Te. There is however ample evidence that the Chinese arts were brought to Okinawa with the 36 families in the 1300s. On top of that were the strong trade links with China, even after the Shimazu clan annexed Okinawa in the 1600s, Okinawa was the trade link between Japan and China and was still a tributary state to China. Then you have the strengthening of the bond when Okinawans like Matsumura and later Higaonna and Uechi spent years in China.

Then on top of that, I would contend that punching and kicking are only a small part of karate. Significant, certainly but one part along with all the open hand techniques, grappling takedowns etc. The transition into the schools and the introduction of competition was what produced the style of sport karate that now typifies karate as a whole.

Even in the article is this little sleeper.

That the theory presented in this work is not corroborated by past or present generations of Okinawan Karate authorities doesn’t make it any less valuable. The lack of official documentation, historical testimony and conclusive evidence explaining the eclectic origins and subsequent evolution of Okinawa’s empty-handed fighting arts was more than enough to provoke my curiosity. I have questioned the accepted history and origins of Karate, provided compelling evidence to identify its individual domestic and foreign precursors, and arrived at a perfectly plausible explanation of the forces, which shaped its transitions.

Basically this says it is his theory and all the other karate authorities in Okinawa disagree, but what would they know?

A little evidence of what 'pre-schoolboy karate' looked like might be found in the Kakie video in this article on Tuite.
http://www.ikigaiway.com/2009/what-is-tuite/
:asian:

 

[TimoS]

A little evidence of what 'pre-schoolboy karate' looked like

You know, I hate the "schoolboy karate" term. Yes, Itosu and some others taught at school, BUT they also taught at their "dojo" (home, that is) and what they taught at home, wasn't the same stuff they taught at school. Furthermore, we don't know of anybody who was taught only at school. They were all private students! If somebody thinks that Chibana didn't learn from Itosu all that he could teach, I would like to know why you think so. Or why would Kyan leave out something from what he taught to his private students? I'm not sure if Miyagi even taught at schools, but Uechi certainly didn't.

introduction of competition was what produced the style of sport karate that now typifies karate as a whole

Exactly! The schools weren't really that bad, it was the competitions. Little by little, students became more interested in competition and spending less time of kata (and especially the contents of kata), because kata wasn't considered important for competetive fighting. Therefore it slowly became an empty shell you just had to memorize, instead of the heart of the system.

 

[K-man]

You know, I hate the "schoolboy karate" term. Yes, Itosu and some others taught at school, BUT they also taught at their "dojo" (home, that is) and what they taught at home, wasn't the same stuff they taught at school. Furthermore, we don't know of anybody who was taught only at school. They were all private students! If somebody thinks that Chibana didn't learn from Itosu all that he could teach, I would like to know why you think so. Or why would Kyan leave out something from what he taught to his private students? I'm not sure if Miyagi even taught at schools, but Uechi certainly didn't.

Exactly! The schools weren't really that bad, it was the competitions. Little by little, students became more interested in competition and spending less time of kata (and especially the contents of kata), because kata wasn't considered important for competetive fighting. Therefore it slowly became an empty shell you just had to memorize, instead of the heart of the system.

Haven't you read some of the other threads? A system is no good if you don't compete! Lol!

What many people don't realise, and I didn't either for too many years, is that what went to Japan and what the Servicemen stationed in Okinawa after the war, was not the whole system. In fact it was just the tip of the iceberg. Unfortunately most schools are still teaching the sanitised version. I'm not sure what happened with Uechi Ryu but it seems to have retained most of its original teaching. Goju, not so much, at least in public. So Chibana may well have learned everything, in fact most probably did, but did he teach everything to everybody, or just the select few? Did Miyagi pass on his knowledge? If he did it hasn't been let out. He was grooming Jinan Shinzato as his successor. After he was killed did Miyagi groom another? He certainly didn't choose a successor.

Then you have Hokama Tetsuhiro Sensei who came from a different line. He talks of all the old ways so somebody passed on the history to him. I would love to spend time training with him.

And you you have Higa, who trained with both Miyagi and Higaonna. He would have been another great font of knowledge.

Oh for a 'time machine'.

 

[TimoS]

ut did he teach everything to everybody, or just the select few?

Ah, good question! My guess is that he taught as much as he could to each in the time that they were with him. I mean that if someone was with him only for e.g. a year, he got taught all he could absorb in that timeframe. If you were with him longer, then you got to see & learn more.

He certainly didn't choose a successor.

Not many did, really. I'm more familiar with the Kyan lineage, and we know that he didn't name a successor. Zenryo Shimabukuro probably was with him the longest, but he wasn't named a successor

Oh for a 'time machine'.

Amen to that

 

[TimoS]

Okay, now I finally got around to reading the article. I haven't yet read it through, but this caught my eye

1. The name “Karatedo” [空手道/empty hand　way] is a modern term not developed until 1933.

So how come Hanashiro Chomo used it already in 1905?

Understandably, much was lost when Itosu Ankoh brought out from behind closed doors the old practices and introduced a simplified version to the public domain through kata. It was during that era that many of the originalTegumi, Tori-te, and Ti’gwa practices began to fall quietly dormant as the overall art became forever transformed.

As already stated, this is IMHO an over-simplification and for whatever reason fails to note the private students

Edit: now I've read this through, and IMO there's nothing there that ties Muay Boran to early ti. It is just the author's own hypothesis and he offers no real proof as to why the link exists. Like I said in the beginning, it is certainly possible that Siamese fighting arts had an influence on ti, but claiming that Muay Boran was the influence on ti striking methods and then offering (IMHO) no real proof as to why that is so, is quite a stretch.

 

[punisher73]

Mr. McCarthy isn't the only one who has this theory. Here is a more lighthearted blog post about karate's origins being influenced by Siam.

http://www.karatebyjesse.com/siam-discovering-karates-forgotten-source-pt-1/

He does quote a very old historical book that talks about how many documented voyages were made between okinawa and siam.


Side note:

As to "schoolboy karate". We know of some private students that taught, but even they made changes to what they were doing and didn't pass on a system exactly as they had learned it. We know that Miyagi changed what he learned into what is now "Goju-Ryu". Almost all of Chotoku Kyan's students changed and altered what they were taught by him (only Zenryo Shimabukuro says he kept it exact). We also know that Kanei Uechi changed what his father taught to what is there now due to the Japanese exchange. Many of these systems revamped themselves and were "re-imported" so to speak with the japanese influence after it became so popular over there.

For me though, when I think "schoolboy karate", I think of Shotokan. We KNOW that Funakoshi made changes even further after Itosu and "made it safe for school children" as he states in his autobiography. We also know even looking at the Shotokan katas and comparing them to the Shorin-ryu versions that many things were taken out (For example, the dump from Wansu/Empi that was replaced with a turning jump). We also know that many applications were NOT passed on by the direct students and have either been re-engineered or altered to make sense.

We also know that some okinawan systems were created with the American GI's length of stay in mind. Isshin-Ryu for example, was set up to train a person for one year and they would have the system (movements, not mastery) before they left. Many of those direct first time students say that the only applications taught were of the block/punch/kick variety and there was not much of the tui-te included. Other students down the line have learned these movements so it is not clear if they were taught it or learned to recognize it in their movements from other kata applications from other styles.

All of which, goes back to the original premise that Okinawa and it's art has been altered and refined at all stages of it's existance. It could have been that the Siam influence predated the chinese influence and was more involved with it's Tegumi so it's influence was not known by it's karate masters who only learned directly from chinese sources. When watching karate and Muay Boran, they seem to be more similar in appearance and application that many of the southern kung fu styles it was descended from. I think it is a very plausible theory.

 

[K-man]

When watching karate and Muay Boran, they seem to be more similar in appearance and application that many of the southern kung fu styles it was descended from. I think it is a very plausible theory.

Perhaps you could find some video of Muay Boran for us. That is early 20th century, because basically all I can find now is Muay Thai. Then you have to find old footage from Okinawa of the same vintage, and that I have never seen. Comparing modern sport karate with modern Muay Thai shows nothing. I'm sorry, I think the theory is quite implausible as it ignores known history and replaces it with theoretical history.
:asian:

 

[TimoS]

Perhaps you could find some video of Muay Boran for us.

Actually, Muay Boran is alive, kind of at least. There are people who practice it, but I have no idea if what they are doing is actually the same stuff that this supposedly origin of striking in karate is. I've seen it in one demonstration and at least according to one friend who was with me, the moves were all modern stuff. So it could be a modern recreation from various sources, a bit like modern Pankration.

Oh and one more thing. I asked about ti'gwa from my sources. Our chief instructor contacted Measara sensei, our chief instructor for Europe and according to him ti'gwa is weapons and therefore nothing to do with striking per se.

 

[punisher73]

Perhaps you could find some video of Muay Boran for us. That is early 20th century, because basically all I can find now is Muay Thai. Then you have to find old footage from Okinawa of the same vintage, and that I have never seen. Comparing modern sport karate with modern Muay Thai shows nothing. I'm sorry, I think the theory is quite implausible as it ignores known history and replaces it with theoretical history.
:asian:

Here is a video of some old school Muay Boran. If you watch, some of the applications are very similar to okinawan karate applications and postures. Others you can see the concepts employed, but not the specific techniques, and others no comparision at all. The first couple applications shown are found in many katas and use the "manji uke" found in karate that stumps alot of people on it's applications.

Here is a video of "old style" tuite as it was supposedly passed on. Look at the distancing and angling used. Very similar to the old muay boran.

Also, is that the author of the article believes that Siamese boxing INFLUENCED okinawan karate. That doesn't mean that ALL of the striking was derived from it or that the chinese arts also didn't play an important role. The book that was cited in the second blog post even mentions in that old okinawan history book that there was an exchange of martial arts between the two countries.

As for the history. We will probably never know for sure. If we just look at the modern history of what we know of that area we can trace certain things we now know to be false even though for years the "top masters" told us differently. First, Japanese karate denied that there was a chinese influence at all because they didn't like the chinese. We know that many korean masters still deny the japanese influence of their art and some even claim to have learned the katas in China. We also now that for the okinawans they highly respected the chinese and adopted much of their culture and it was considered a good thing to be derived from a chinese source.

Going back to okinawan history of karate. How far does it really go back that we have known history? We know for a fact that okinawan started trade with Siam in the early 1400's, very close to the same time it was trading with the chinese and the other SE asian nations. This is documented as fact. Then we have a big gap until 1750 when Kana Sakukawa/Sakugawa started training with Peichin Takahara. We know that Peichin was considered the "Father of Okinawan karate", so we have about a 300 year gap between established trade with these nations and what we know as the start of okinawan karate. Sakugawa, was encouraged to start training with "Kusanku", who we know was chinese, but not if that was his real name of a misproununciation of his real chinese name. We do know that in 1762, Sakugawa started to teach what he had learned and passed on his teachings to Matsumura Sokon. We do know that Matsumura went to China and Japan and incorporated principles into what he did. So our "documented" chinese influences are really a more recent development where we can point to a specific person etc. with what they did.

 

[K-man]

Here is a video of some old school Muay Boran. If you watch, some of the applications are very similar to okinawan karate applications and postures. Others you can see the concepts employed, but not the specific techniques, and others no comparision at all. The first couple applications shown are found in many katas and use the "manji uke" found in karate that stumps alot of people on it's application.

Seeing that most kata came from China unless they are saying that Muay Boran influenced the Chinese arts too, it doesn't make sense. On top of that, we can look at many applications and fit them to kata. That is what bunkai is all about, a realistic application.

Here is a video of "old style" tuite as it was supposedly passed on. Look at the distancing and angling used. Very similar to the old muay boran.

Also, is that the author of the article believes that Siamese boxing INFLUENCED okinawan karate. That doesn't mean that ALL of the striking was derived from it or that the chinese arts also didn't play an important role. The book that was cited in the second blog post even mentions in that old okinawan history book that there was an exchange of martial arts between the two countries.

The first video is similar to Muay Thai and the second is exactly what we practise in our Tegumi. Ignoring the second half of the second video which is iron shirt or something similar, I can't see anything in those videos that suggest there is any link between them.

How much influence was there in Okinawan Tegumi? Who knows, but the fact that it was termed Okinawan 'Wrestling' suggests it wasn't all punching and kicking.
:asian:

 

[TimoS]

Also, is that the author of the article believes that Siamese boxing INFLUENCED okinawan karate. That doesn't mean that ALL of the striking was derived from it

Actually, at least the way I read it, he is saying that ALL the striking came from Muay Boran

I am satisfied with the results of this study and sincerely hope my presentation has succeeded in illustrating how and why Muay Boran [i.e., Siamese Boxing] represents the original source from which came Ti'gwa

​

 

[punisher73]

Actually, at least the way I read it, he is saying that ALL the striking came from Muay Boran


[/I][/I]​

Ahh, I missed that. I would disagree with that statement as well. I was more familiar with the "Karate by Jesse" article that I posted. He also believes that it was influenced by Burmese boxing. I believe that the influence would be a safe assumption because we can see many differences between the two. But, as an influence, I can see many similarities too that I don't see from the chinese sources. I can't remember the author right now, but I know there is another book out there that digs into the Siam/Okinawa connection as an influence.

 

[TimoS]

He also believes that it was influenced by Burmese boxing. I believe that the influence would be a safe assumption because we can see many differences between the two.

Well sure, but OTOH, the influence could as easily have been a two way street, i.e. the Okinawan methods influenced Siamese methods. We'll never know. We only know for sure that Chinese arts influenced Okinawan arts, but we'll probably never know what those arts were (unless someone invents a time machine :fanboy

 

[punisher73]

Well sure, but OTOH, the influence could as easily have been a two way street, i.e. the Okinawan methods influenced Siamese methods. We'll never know. We only know for sure that Chinese arts influenced Okinawan arts, but we'll probably never know what those arts were (unless someone invents a time machine :fanboy

Very true. I think it probably was more of a two way street as you said. In some more modern cases, it is easier to track where things came from because of written documentation. For example, Jigoro Kano borrowed a couple of takedowns from western wrestling that he found effective. Strangely enough, we know that the triangle choke found in BJJ was discovered looking through an old Judo book.

I love old history about the martial arts and one of the things I have found is that sometime influences do get attributed because of similarities. I was looking into the history of William Chow (instructor to Sijo Emperado, co-founder of Kajukenbo and Ed Parker, founder of American Kenpo) because he was by all accounts a great fighter. While looking at some of Kajukenbo's techniques, their first punch defense has a left inward parry while the right hand hammers the bicep. I have been told by some that this was due to Sijo Emperado's exposure to the filipino arts and their "gunting techniques". I also spoke with other people who said that one of Prof. Chow's specialties was limb destruction as a punch came in, and that is where the influence came from.

So, it could even be a case like this, that through fighting, the okinawans developed their own methods that differed from the chinese methods and happened to be similar to methods developed by the burmese boxers independantly. But, I think that like all fighters at some point there was some talking between the groups and the burmese did have an influence on the okinawans and probably as you said, the okinawans influenced the burmese fighters.

 

[Flying Crane]

We only know for sure that Chinese arts influenced Okinawan arts, but we'll probably never know what those arts were (unless someone invents a time machine :fanboy

It's solidly documented that Fukien White Crane is one Chinese method that influenced Okinawan methods. There may have been others too. But Sanchin kata is a variant of a form from Fukien white crane, still practiced in that method.

 

[TimoS]

It's solidly documented that Fukien White Crane is one Chinese method that influenced Okinawan methods. There may have been others too. But Sanchin kata is a variant of a form from Fukien white crane, still practiced in that method.

Well, yes, white crane (or some other crane) probably did influence at least Uechi ryu and maybe also Goju ryu, but my viewpoint was the older methods that evolved into Shorin ryu.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, yes, white crane (or some other crane) probably did influence at least Uechi ryu and maybe also Goju ryu, but my viewpoint was the older methods that evolved into Shorin ryu.

ok, I don't know much about the Okinawan history so I don't mean to comment out of place. I do know that at some point along the way there was some white crane involvement but I am not certain at what era that happened, nor where the Okinawan methods were in terms of their own development at that time.

 

[K-man]

Well, yes, white crane (or some other crane) probably did influence at least Uechi ryu and maybe also Goju ryu, but my viewpoint was the older methods that evolved into Shorin ryu.

And certainly that is the case. Mutsumura introduced Chinese forms into his training years before the others and because of the cross training that already existed that would have influenced the whole Okinawan system. At that time the system was not open to the public so the chance that sailors off a visiting ship were training is not even a possibility. The chance of an Okinawan sailor returning from Siam and influencing the teachers of the Okinawan arts is also unlikely. The only chance would be if there was a festival with a tuite competition where one of those sailors competed and did well. Of that there is no record.

If you put a monkey in a room with a piano he might start to play it and it might look similar to a real pianist but could you ever say that the monkey influenced the real pianist. Not disparaging the Muay Boran as a fighting style but I would suggest both developed independently even if along similar paths.
:asian: