serious concerns with my new TSD school

[Shaolinwind]

I have serious concerns with my current school. I had just transferred to a different Do Jang within the same organization, and found this new do jang to be far different to the original I attended.

The organization is highly reputable, as is the Grand Master. However I feel I may have gotten a bad egg as far as a do jang. Out of respect for the organization I will not name the org. or any of the instructors.

Firstly, the students in my opinion have very poor spirit. In the old school, everyone bowed to everyone upon entering the do jang. The new one, hardly anyone bows to anyone. Everyone, including senior members arrive at the school in full uniform, belt and all when it's expressly forbidden to wear the belt or upper part of the do bok in public.

Having been paired up with senior belts, few of them have been able to help me much. For instance, a person just 1 rank higher than me was unable to show me the 1 step sparring moves for my new rank as he was instructed to, resulting in me not learning these moves until later when I was chastized for not knowing them. This is not a unique experience. I always felt that I learned a great deal from classmates, or at least should. My fellow students here offer little help in anything, and I get a great deal of contradicting information. During a recent test, we were doing different moves per instruction. When crossing my arms for a low block, a blackbelt hovering around quietly instructed me to switch my arms.. Which were in fact in the proper position.

I can go on about people with weak spirit and weak Tang Soo Do. I am a mere beginner of 7 months, so who am I to judge? One doesn't need a weather report to know it's raining.

As discussed in one of my previous posts, my wife was getting roughed up quite a bit by senior members in sparring. We talked to the instructor, she assured her that she would be more careful when pairing her with people to spar. This has yielded little results as she was still coming home badly bruised by some overzealous green belt with poor control.

Classes start consistently 10 minutes late, and end 5 minutes early. 15 minutes are spent on stretching that in my opinion should be done before class. That leaves me with a half hour of solid training.

There are adult classes, but for some reason they always have kids in them. Kids as young as age 8 in fact. Badly behaved kids who talk and don't follow instruction.

This leads me to ask.. Whose fault is this? The senior instructor? Perhaps. She is a master of the art, but that doesn't mean she's a good teacher. In fact, she barely instructs. I know I am not doing everything right, so why do I never get corrected?

I am an adult of nearly 30 years of age. I am aware of a need to be prepared. But the day we didn't have sparring gear ready to go (it was in the car), there was a lecture to the whole class about being prepared. This is a good thing in my opinion, except then 3 weeks went by where we sparred in class but she didn't instruct us to get our gear on. What kind of person does that?

$50 every 4 months to test wouldn't be so bad, if I thought there was a way to fail the test. During testing, when a person was unable to fullfil the requirements, such as a board break with a running jumping back kick, he was instructed just to do a regular back kick. When a person couldn't break the board at all, they just had them do it after a class later. This shows me that you don't really need to meet the requirements for the next level other than the bare minimum or less. I wasn't fully convinced they were even watching us as we went through the motions of 1-step sparring moves and forms.

No one ever fails tests, ever.

I understand it's a business, but I think the business end is in the way of training. They don't want to fail people in tests, since tests are expensive and it might discourage someone from continuing to pay their membership fees. They allow people to bring their children to adult classes probably because it keeps members in the school and the money rolling in. Money is important, as a business man I know this. But I don't shell out my hard earned just to take the fast train to black belt or endure the antics of noisy and misbehaved children.

I love Tang Soo Do and am proud of my achievements because I worked hard for them. I weigh almost 300 pounds, and just a few minutes of front stretch kicks gets me winded. But I still hold my stances low, move fast, kick high, and never give in to pain. I try to control my breathing, take the pain, and work work work. I have personal goals to meet and subsequently exceed and I know it won't come easy. I take pride in every choon be I execute.
But when I look to my right and see a black belt performing a lazy, half-baked choon be, I want to just give up. That's poor spirit on my part, but it's a result of a cumulative effect. I started to see the problems and I decided not to worry about what other people are doing, just my own training. But then, what other people are doing effects my training, and it reflects the quality of training I can get.

I believe that I should part ways with this school. Am I out of line? Am I acting too fast? How can I talk with the instructor about this, when there are so many problems? I want to just stop going, and send them my membership card. But, part of me says I should handle it in a different way.

I could really use a bit of wisdom right now.. Unfortunately I'm a young man with very little of my own. Any comments or suggestions are most welcome.

kind regards,
G.P.

 

[MJS]

Is there any way you can transfer back to your original Dojo? If not, there are a few different options you can try.

First, you could sit down and talk to the Head instructor at that school. Address your concerns with them and see what they have to say. IMO, you should be able to talk to them about things that concern you without having to worry about being punished. You're not showing disrespect, you're addressing a concern. After all, you're paying money to attend, so I'm sure you want to get your moneys worth.

Second, you could leave that school. If returning to the old one is not an option, you could seek out another school, within the same art. If finding another school teaching the same art is not possible, you could consider switching arts.

Mike

 

[Shaolinwind]

Is there any way you can transfer back to your original Dojo? If not, there are a few different options you can try.

First, you could sit down and talk to the Head instructor at that school. Address your concerns with them and see what they have to say. IMO, you should be able to talk to them about things that concern you without having to worry about being punished. You're not showing disrespect, you're addressing a concern. After all, you're paying money to attend, so I'm sure you want to get your moneys worth.

Second, you could leave that school. If returning to the old one is not an option, you could seek out another school, within the same art. If finding another school teaching the same art is not possible, you could consider switching arts.

Mike

Returning to the other school isn't an option. My problem with speaking to the head instructor is just that there isn't really much I could realistically ask of her. How could I say "I'm going to need you to change your everything". It wouldn't be very constructive IMHO.

 

[Adept]

All I can suggest is to remember that, ultimately, you are in control of your training. Take what you can from this dojo, and do your best to ignore the rest. If two people give you conflicting instruction, take the one that feels right to you. If you are questioned on it, tell them thats how you were told to do it.

Don't worry about the little things like people wearing their uniform outside or not bowing. When it comes time for you to use your skills, having someone outside three blocks away wearing their uniform on the street shouldn't be a factor. How well you learn is not related to how many other people bow at the appropriate time.

Just do your best to take what you can from this new Dojo.

 

[Shaolinwind]

All I can suggest is to remember that, ultimately, you are in control of your training. Take what you can from this dojo, and do your best to ignore the rest. If two people give you conflicting instruction, take the one that feels right to you. If you are questioned on it, tell them thats how you were told to do it.

Don't worry about the little things like people wearing their uniform outside or not bowing. When it comes time for you to use your skills, having someone outside three blocks away wearing their uniform on the street shouldn't be a factor. How well you learn is not related to how many other people bow at the appropriate time.

Just do your best to take what you can from this new Dojo.

I disagree with you. Those things are very important. If the instructors don't enforce the rules that our Grand Master has set down, then what else are they ignoring? So yes, indirectly that does effect my ability to defend myself. Those things are characteristic of poor spirit and a weak martial arts foundation.. I can't count on learning strong TSD from a weak foundation. I can work hard as a mule but how good will I get when no one cares that I'm doing it wrong?

Mediocrity is a dirty word.

 

[The Kai]

Run away, If you like TSD try to find that style or similiar style. If not look for a school with the proper "Spirit', then worry about what style!

 

[Karate Dad]

Chobaja,

It sounds like you have your mind already made up. I would follow your heart on this. If the spirit of the school is bothering you, you will always be distracted while training and you will second-guess everything you have learned. I agree with The Kai, find a school that has the right spirit...if it is in the same style, so much the better.

Good luck...Let us know what happens

John

 

[rutherford]

You don't need our permission to leave. At this point, I have to ask why you're staying at all. What do you feel you are getting out of the school?

 

[VSanhodo]

The beauty of this situation is that you are essentially in control of where and with whom you train. If elect to stay in your present school then you have to put up with the situation. I fyou choose to leave, then you have to find another school which fills your needs and personality better.
Either way you are in charge. I once had a dentist ask me If I had ever had a bad expierence with another dentist, I told him the truth that yes I had. He then asked what happened and what did I do about it. My answer was simply what happened is really not important what I did about it, well Im here in your office now.
If your not happy leave, dont whine or cry, simply leave.
Look at the ability of the senior students, instructors and the school as a whole. Make your decision and move on, either by staying or leaving. I tell my students point blank Im not there for a popularity contest. I dont teach children and that includes those children over 21. I dont charge for classes either, so if a student wants to come and be there fine and if they dont fine again. Your school will surive with or without you. You have to decide what you want.
Thanks
San

 

[Adept]

Those things are characteristic of poor spirit and a weak martial arts foundation.

It seems to me you are focusing too much on the abstracts of the martial arts. I don't know, maybe thats your thing. You, and no one else are ultimately responsible for how you train. Who cares if other people don't bow? So long as your stances are correct, who cares? Who cares if they wear their uniform and belt outside? So long as you can defend yourself, it isn't important.

Take to heart Yoda's lesson from Star Wars. Don't be concerned with the hubris surrounding the style. Concern yourself with learning the skills and techniques.

I can't count on learning strong TSD from a weak foundation.

You need to be more specific for me here. What is a foundation, and how do you learn from it? To my mind, a foundation is a solid set of core techniques and theories from which you can expand your learning. A strong foundation would, to me, be a set of techniques and theories solidly grounded in reality. A weak foundation would be techniques and theories which are unrealistic. If some students choose not to bow, or choose to wear their uniform outside, how does that effect your foundation? Of course, your definition of a foundation may differ wildly from my own.

I can work hard as a mule but how good will I get when no one cares that I'm doing it wrong?

Well, that is a problem. Like I said, take what you can from this class, if leaving is not an option. When they teach you something that works, take note. When they teach you something that doesn't, then disregard it.

Mediocrity is a dirty word.

Indeed.

 

[shesulsa]

I'm on the fence about what you should do.

You could stay and set an example for all to follow. This would also entail your wife either blocking better or giving this overzealous green belt the beating of his life.

Maybe the head instructor is looking for someone more zealous in their training.

Before you quit, try this - get there early and warm up before class, then start working out on your own ON TIME - or stretch in those 10 minutes
and if instructor wants you to join the rest of the class in stretching, tell him/her that you've already stretched and may you work on your combinations or hyungs instead.

If you're reprimanded, then leave.

 

[OC Kid]

Coming up through the ranks and visiting a lot of schools in my system. I realized how different they were.

Some schools were harder than others period.

Each instructor has their own methods good and bad.

You now have a choice.

Either stay with it.

Leave. I think you already know the answer

 

[MJS]

Returning to the other school isn't an option. My problem with speaking to the head instructor is just that there isn't really much I could realistically ask of her. How could I say "I'm going to need you to change your everything". It wouldn't be very constructive IMHO.

Please don't misunderstand here. When I said speak to the Head instructor, I was not making a reference for you to ask her to change the material taught, but simply address the concerns that you have. For example, you said this:

Having been paired up with senior belts, few of them have been able to help me much. For instance, a person just 1 rank higher than me was unable to show me the 1 step sparring moves for my new rank as he was instructed to, resulting in me not learning these moves until later when I was chastized for not knowing them. This is not a unique experience. I always felt that I learned a great deal from classmates, or at least should. My fellow students here offer little help in anything, and I get a great deal of contradicting information. During a recent test, we were doing different moves per instruction. When crossing my arms for a low block, a blackbelt hovering around quietly instructed me to switch my arms.. Which were in fact in the proper position.

Why is someone who is a higher rank than you, unable to show you material that you need to learn..material that they should know to be the rank that they are?

When talking about your test, it seems that there is some serious miscommunication at that school. Yes, there are certainly different ways a technique can be applied, but for example, if the tech. in question has you stepping forward with your left leg, and the next person teaching it has you stepping with the right, there is a red flag that should be raised.

Please do not take my post as a slam on you, because that is not my intention, but it appears to me that there are many things that need to be addressed at this school. It seems like there is no organization as to the way things are being taught.

Mike

 

[dsp921]

I think you should walk away. I think that is what you think as well.
Find a school that meets your needs and expectations, anything less is a waste of time. I don't see how raising these concerns to the head instructor would go well. I doubt they will be too receptive to the fact that people they taught and ranked don't know the material. Find a better school, sounds like you take your training seriously and deserve better. Best of luck.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think the head instructor is at fault. It sounds like a mcdojo to me.



If there is little discipline and showing of respect in an art that prides itslef on these things something is definitely wrong at the school.

If higher ranked students can not show you the techniques or are unwilling then something is wrong.

If testing happens and no one ever fails something is wrong and it is only a money making business not a learning place.

If different instructors are telling you different things for the same move something is wrong and you need to approach the head instructor and politely ask for the correct technique explaining that you have had varied positioning shown and you need to learn the correct one if you are to do thing correctly.



You may need to seek a different school

 

[terryl965]

Follow your first instincts for one that follow with a heavy heart is doom for the rest of there life. Seriously if your instrinct tell you to go back then go back if they say stay then say and work through the problem and learn from the stituation. Hope you choice will be a wase and just decission.

 

[47MartialMan]

Are you there to continue ranking privileges or organization loyalty?

TSD is a good art, but you may have to change...why subject yourself to misery?

You are caught between what the heart desires verse the mind/logic of it....

 

[Shaolinwind]

Thanks a lot to everyone's input. Many of you are right, much of what was said rings true, and much has given me food for thought. And yes I had pretty much already made up my mind.

I have decided to quit. I will probably go to the school in a day or so and give the master our membership cards and my kind regards. I have decided that I will tell her nothing more than we have chosen to move on.. Only if she presses the issue will I tell her my reasons. Naturally it should be an amiable conversation regardless, but I would like to save her the bad feelings my opinions will leave her with.

I have sought training, with my wife, at Master Rothrock's Northern Eagle Claw Kung Fu school in Pittsburgh and have attended a couple classes. I think I made the right desicion. I took Kung Fu under the same master almost 10 years ago and had to quit when I moved out of the state. We are most pleased with the environment and attitude, and that adult classes are for adults. My wife (by the way, Samantha K on these forums) is also pleased with this change. And if the wife is happy I am happy! =)

Once again, thank you all so much. It warms my heart to find such a kind and supportive group of strangers.

I have serious concerns with my current school.
The organization is highly reputable, as is the Grand Master. However I feel I may have gotten a bad egg as far as a do jang.

 

[MJS]

Congrats!!! It sounds like you've made a good choice and I'm sure you'll be happy!!!

Mike

 

[47MartialMan]

yeah, and if your spise likes it...its a "all win situation"