School Bans Service Dog
- Thread starter MJS
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I smell a lawsuit citing the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Wal Mart's corporate policy regarding service animals: The door greeter, AND ONLY the door greeter CAN ask if the animal is a service animal. If the customer says, "Yes." no further questions will be asked.
That seems like a stupid policy, but, it will keep them from getting sued for refusing entry to someone with a service animal.
Wal Mart's corporate policy regarding service animals: The door greeter, AND ONLY the door greeter CAN ask if the animal is a service animal. If the customer says, "Yes." no further questions will be asked.
That seems like a stupid policy, but, it will keep them from getting sued for refusing entry to someone with a service animal.
LuckyKBoxer
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I dont know about all this helper dog crap to be honest.
I mean i get actual uses, this seems above board from a generic point of view, but we have some properties and we specifically do not allow certain breeds of dog because the insurance costs are way to high to allow them on the premises. Now I have to make an exception and pay the increased insurance costs because a family passed what they needed to move in then decides to sneak a pit bull in, also one of the restricted breeds, when we told them they had to get rid of the dog or move they went to their doctor and got a doctors note saying the animal was an assistance animal because her young daughter had trauma related stress and the dog was the cure.
I call total bullcrap on that, but the lawyers say that especially here in California the law is going to side with her without question.
I understand that doctors seem to say that its best for anyone with a disability of any kind to be integrated with normal students to better their lives, but I have a problem when that becomes a distraction for the other students from their main reason at being at school, which is to learn. I have heard the argument about them learning compassion, and how to deal with disabled students, and there is absolutely something to be said for that, but the district making sure that the animal will not be a problem for the other students seems like a fair and reasonable thing to me.
Everyone seems to think its ok for one person or family to put many more people and families at risk simply because they are at a disadvantage, I dont think thats a fair thing to do.
I hope the animal is a sweetheart, peaceful, and only able to be friendly and care fo the disabled kid. I hope it works out for everyone involved, but the situation still sucks for everyone involved.
I mean i get actual uses, this seems above board from a generic point of view, but we have some properties and we specifically do not allow certain breeds of dog because the insurance costs are way to high to allow them on the premises. Now I have to make an exception and pay the increased insurance costs because a family passed what they needed to move in then decides to sneak a pit bull in, also one of the restricted breeds, when we told them they had to get rid of the dog or move they went to their doctor and got a doctors note saying the animal was an assistance animal because her young daughter had trauma related stress and the dog was the cure.
I call total bullcrap on that, but the lawyers say that especially here in California the law is going to side with her without question.
I understand that doctors seem to say that its best for anyone with a disability of any kind to be integrated with normal students to better their lives, but I have a problem when that becomes a distraction for the other students from their main reason at being at school, which is to learn. I have heard the argument about them learning compassion, and how to deal with disabled students, and there is absolutely something to be said for that, but the district making sure that the animal will not be a problem for the other students seems like a fair and reasonable thing to me.
Everyone seems to think its ok for one person or family to put many more people and families at risk simply because they are at a disadvantage, I dont think thats a fair thing to do.
I hope the animal is a sweetheart, peaceful, and only able to be friendly and care fo the disabled kid. I hope it works out for everyone involved, but the situation still sucks for everyone involved.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #5
I've never heard of any service dog 'going bad' and attacking anyone within 2ft. IMO, it sounds like a bunch of paranoid people. Actually, let me be more clear....it sounds like some parents, whos kids attend the same school, are clueless about dogs, see what breed the dog is, associate that dog with LE work, assume that its vicious, assume that their kids are 'at risk' of getting attacked, complained to the school, the school has no balls, so they, rather than explain things, bow down to the pressure of others, and deny access.
It seems that this kid has a legit medical issue. If the dog can alert the kid or someone with the kid, to an oncoming seizure, then I dont see what the big deal is. I'm sure, at least I hope so, that the parents of this kid sue and win. Of course, if they get the backing of the ADA, IMO, it'll be a sure win.
It seems that this kid has a legit medical issue. If the dog can alert the kid or someone with the kid, to an oncoming seizure, then I dont see what the big deal is. I'm sure, at least I hope so, that the parents of this kid sue and win. Of course, if they get the backing of the ADA, IMO, it'll be a sure win.
LuckyKBoxer
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I would think that it would be a pretty quick process to make sure that the other kids are safe..
I am sure they could outfit the dog with some kind of harness or muzzle that could prevent it from biting another student.
I dont see a problem with other parents demanding that their kids are safe, having a dog in a classroom is not an average everyday thing, and german shephards are big dogs, and could do alot of damage if proper steps are not taken..
preteens/teens? god how many idiot kids are going to provoke the animal as it is?
wrong as it is you can not reasonably expect all preeteens or teens to allow the animal to be left alone and given proper space, and you can not reasonably expect a school full of them to respect that, so might as well insure their safety first, and then work the animal into the system
I am sure they could outfit the dog with some kind of harness or muzzle that could prevent it from biting another student.
I dont see a problem with other parents demanding that their kids are safe, having a dog in a classroom is not an average everyday thing, and german shephards are big dogs, and could do alot of damage if proper steps are not taken..
preteens/teens? god how many idiot kids are going to provoke the animal as it is?
wrong as it is you can not reasonably expect all preeteens or teens to allow the animal to be left alone and given proper space, and you can not reasonably expect a school full of them to respect that, so might as well insure their safety first, and then work the animal into the system
ballen0351
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I saw this on the news this morning. Didnt make the school look very good. They interviewed the school superintendent and she said if the dog had an adult with him at all times they would allow it.
If the dogs is trained and has its documentation they should allow it.
If the dogs is trained and has its documentation they should allow it.
ballen0351
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Its even more then alerting the kid the dog had a special magnet in it collar that when the boy has a seizure the dog is trained to rub the magnet over a port implanted in the boys chest which causes an electric pulse to be sent to the boys brain which can end or reduce the effect of the seizure. It was really amazing what that dog is trained to do.
Below is a selecton of various websites which cite which breed of dog is generally used as a service dog.
Funny, no pit bulls, dobermans, rottweilers, or any other type of generally aggressively trained dog (save the German Shepherd) are on the list of service dogs. Not that they're incapable just not preferred. Granted none of the aforementioned dogs would have aggressive tendencies either unless they're trained to be that way.
But then again ANY Dog will react violently if mis-treated. So simple... tell the kids to leave the fricken dog alone!
Funny, no pit bulls, dobermans, rottweilers, or any other type of generally aggressively trained dog (save the German Shepherd) are on the list of service dogs. Not that they're incapable just not preferred. Granted none of the aforementioned dogs would have aggressive tendencies either unless they're trained to be that way.
Ignorance is what causing this problem. Retrievers, Labradors and several other species have long histories of being extraordinarily gentle dogs and are commonly used as service animals.
But then again ANY Dog will react violently if mis-treated. So simple... tell the kids to leave the fricken dog alone!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #10
Well, I think Mac summed it up pretty well. Any dog has the potential to bite, but there've been a few times when I've been out, have seen a service dog, and they are very mellow, so much to the point where people have gone up to the dog to pet it, after asking of course.
As for the space and bothering the dog issue....perhaps the child in question could leave his class and go to the next one a few min. prior to the rest of the kids entering the halls. The child could be escorted by a teacher. The childs desk could be positioned in the classroom, away from the other kids. And it seems that Shepherds and Labs are not really that far off in size, although upon the average Joe looking at the 2, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of uneducated people viewing dogs, would assume the Lab is the gentler of the 2.
LuckyKBoxer
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you dont need to convince me, my wifes family raised and bred dobermans at one point. So I have no problems with German Shephards, I would love to have one, but I dont want to deal with all the work it takes for upkeep... although my kids are rapidly talking me into getting a dog...
anyways, I think you are thinking of a best caase scenario here guys.
the truth? Kids are kids, they screw around, there are good kids, bad kids, and mischevious kids. I would not be surprised to see a kid scream, or yell, make a loud sudden noise, throw something at the dog, make fun of the kid, or something... and who is to say the dog wouldnt react... most ikely not even bite the kid who did it, but maybe the kid closest to it... like I said they should have no problem putting some kind of muzzle on the dog so that it cant bite even if it wanted too. That should clear things up.
But what if another kid is allergic to dogs? I know of a kid in my sons class that is allergic to dogs, another neighbor boy is allergic to dogs, and I have a couple karate students who are also allergic to dogs..
there are all kinds of problems that can present itself, and most of them are not the concern of the dog being vicious.
anyways, I think you are thinking of a best caase scenario here guys.
the truth? Kids are kids, they screw around, there are good kids, bad kids, and mischevious kids. I would not be surprised to see a kid scream, or yell, make a loud sudden noise, throw something at the dog, make fun of the kid, or something... and who is to say the dog wouldnt react... most ikely not even bite the kid who did it, but maybe the kid closest to it... like I said they should have no problem putting some kind of muzzle on the dog so that it cant bite even if it wanted too. That should clear things up.
But what if another kid is allergic to dogs? I know of a kid in my sons class that is allergic to dogs, another neighbor boy is allergic to dogs, and I have a couple karate students who are also allergic to dogs..
there are all kinds of problems that can present itself, and most of them are not the concern of the dog being vicious.
Good points all of them. Some folks cannot be in the same room with an animal that they're allergic to. Some have a fear of dogs and cannot be in the same room with them. Move the kid or move the dog/kid to another class. Inconvenience maybe. But there has to be a solution amicable to everyone.
If there are concerns for the safety of the other children then a muzzle will have to do. As for allergies and other complications... then other arrangements could be made?
dbell
Blue Belt
At the hospital I work out, our Director is blind, he as a seeing eye dog. It is a doberman. Only problem it has is if you have food, he's going to try to eat it for you, and he leads the Director into walls if food is around...
I have trained and worked with service dogs for several years. If the dog is properly trained, it will leave everyone around alone, and in most cases will ignore attempts to distract it (above doberman is one of those exceptions, when it comes to human food) from it's job.
According to the laws in the US, the school can be fined, PER DAY, $50,000 from barring the dog on campus if it is a certified service dog.
I had a Search and Rescue dog for about seven years. (She had over 20 live finds for missing people, both in disasters (fallen buildings) and wilderness.) Under the law, she was a service dog, and was able to go everywhere with me. We went to movies, the mall, restaurants (if she was with me when it was time to eat, which was often), and pretty much everywhere I went, she went. She wore a cape that said "Service Dog" or "Service Dog in Training" depending on what we were doing that day, and we had MANY people, especially younger kids, trying to distract her. She would ignore them, unless I said she could play with them.
We were traveling across country one time and stopped at a CompUSA one time (before most of them went out of business) to take a break from driving, and the person at the door would not let us in. I asked to speak to the manager, who refused us as well. Their manner was very negative, and they were not overly polite. I went outside, called the FBI, who dispatched the local police and an FBI agent. (They must have been bored at the local FBI office.) The police officer wrote the Manager, the door watcher, and the store chain each a ticket for violating the Disabilities Act which covered the dog's access. They, when it went to court were fined $50,000 for the event, and were required to train all store managers, nation wide, to the laws dealing with service animals. There is no required paperwork to say that the animal is a service dog. The only requirements are that it be properly trained.
It is all about training, and a dog that comes from most training sources that provide medical assistance is normally VERY well trained before released, and in fact training is required to be able to be classified legally as a service dog. The dog must sit stay, down stay, heel, come, and "leave it" (or commands to that effect), on command of the handler at all times.
ballen0351
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Oh the fun games that could be had with that
punisher73
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I'm just curious, and I don't honestly know. Just throwing out questions to develop an opinion.
1) The child is 12 years old, that means he has probably been in school for about 6 years. What has the school/family done up to this point to insure his safety since he has over a dozen seizures a day? Is a public school setting the best placement for this child with those severe medical problems?
2) What is the school's liability in this if the child has one of his life threatening seizures in the bathroom and there is no adult around and no one hears the dog bark and the child is seriously hurt or dies?
From the limited information I have read, it seems to me it would be better for the school to have a human worker that is there with him in case something happens rather than a dog which is just going to bark and take time to get the child the help that is needed. A person has immediate access to a phone and can call for medical help with no time delay. As to the magnet on the dog's collar, again a person could do that just as well.
1) The child is 12 years old, that means he has probably been in school for about 6 years. What has the school/family done up to this point to insure his safety since he has over a dozen seizures a day? Is a public school setting the best placement for this child with those severe medical problems?
2) What is the school's liability in this if the child has one of his life threatening seizures in the bathroom and there is no adult around and no one hears the dog bark and the child is seriously hurt or dies?
From the limited information I have read, it seems to me it would be better for the school to have a human worker that is there with him in case something happens rather than a dog which is just going to bark and take time to get the child the help that is needed. A person has immediate access to a phone and can call for medical help with no time delay. As to the magnet on the dog's collar, again a person could do that just as well.
LuckyKBoxer
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Okay something bout this just seemed wrong.
So I had to go check it out.
I found out that the school does in fact allow service dogs, but they require that the dogs come certified from an organization called Assistance Dogs International, an international organization that accredits service dog providers, with many members who have strict requirements to make sure they produce valid service animals. Among their requirements is that all members are not for profit to insure that there is nobody taking advantage of people. The waiting list is long for the animals from this group though so the family chose to get the animal from another provider who is not affiliated with ADI.
The school district is allowing the dog to accompany the boy on a three week trial basis with adult supervision to see if the dog can behave within the guidelines so that everyone is safe.
One of the Primary Determination of Public access for Service dogs is that their owner can control their behavior.
It seems to me the school distrist is indeed doign its due diligence in making sure that a dog that the owner is claiming is a sevice dog is indeed what they claim it to be, since it is not accredited with the ADI which the district in that county has agreed to take any helper animals from. If someone showed up with a pit bull at the school with a letter claiming it was a helper animal should the school just accept it? I think the main problem is a lack of information, if that had been clear at the beginning this probably wouldnt even be a conversation...
I just found this in the original article I somehow missed it...
it also goes on to say that the kid while in sixth grade operates at a kindergarten or first grade level and they are concerned about his ability to control the dog.
I am satisfied after reading more on it that the school distrcit is doing everything correctly here.
So I had to go check it out.
I found out that the school does in fact allow service dogs, but they require that the dogs come certified from an organization called Assistance Dogs International, an international organization that accredits service dog providers, with many members who have strict requirements to make sure they produce valid service animals. Among their requirements is that all members are not for profit to insure that there is nobody taking advantage of people. The waiting list is long for the animals from this group though so the family chose to get the animal from another provider who is not affiliated with ADI.
The school district is allowing the dog to accompany the boy on a three week trial basis with adult supervision to see if the dog can behave within the guidelines so that everyone is safe.
One of the Primary Determination of Public access for Service dogs is that their owner can control their behavior.
It seems to me the school distrist is indeed doign its due diligence in making sure that a dog that the owner is claiming is a sevice dog is indeed what they claim it to be, since it is not accredited with the ADI which the district in that county has agreed to take any helper animals from. If someone showed up with a pit bull at the school with a letter claiming it was a helper animal should the school just accept it? I think the main problem is a lack of information, if that had been clear at the beginning this probably wouldnt even be a conversation...
I just found this in the original article I somehow missed it...
it also goes on to say that the kid while in sixth grade operates at a kindergarten or first grade level and they are concerned about his ability to control the dog.
I am satisfied after reading more on it that the school distrcit is doing everything correctly here.
KELLYG
2nd Black Belt
I think that in the example of epilepsy that the dog can since the attack prior to the student having a full on attack. The dog administers the assistance that the student needs while the attack is going on. In this case if the pooch is well behaved in class then just leave it be. I think that the students that will be in classes can be educated on the proper protocol with regards to having the service animal in the room. How can a child that operates at a kindergarten or first grade level be in the 6th grade. I guess this would be a factor as well. What if the service animal is well behaved but the student is not. What then????
Not to mention proper etiquette around a dog is a good thing to learn anyhow. Since not all dogs are well behaved.
I'm very familiar with FCPS; they are generally very supportive of students with various special needs. However, this seems like they're simply trying to balance the student's needs with their duty to see to the safety of everyone at the school. Dbell described a poorly trained dog (or one with improper ongoing training); add to that the chaos of a school environment (and Ft Belvoir Elementary is in one of the more interesting parts of Fairfax County, and draws students from a wide range of backgrounds). It doesn't seem that the school has said that the dog cannot be used -- but that the dog cannot be used unless they are confident that the dog will be under control. Rather a different statement, no?
Considering I have heard a school oficial from a totally different school district liken the presence of a calm horse on a lead line with a loaded gun....I am waiting for the movie...
