Saudi to behead Lebanese convicted of witchcraft: lawyer

[Ken Morgan]

I just assumed we were outta the bronze age. I guess some of the western worlds allies in the middle east didn't get the memo...


BEIRUT (AFP) - A Lebanese man sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia on charges of witchcraft is due to be beheaded this week, his lawyer said on Wednesday, urging officials and rights groups to intervene on his behalf.




"Last night we got news through unofficial channels that Ali Sabat would be beheaded within 48 hours," May el-Khansa, Sabat's attorney in Beirut, told AFP.


"I have since been contacting Lebanese officials, including President Michel Sleiman and Lebanon's ambassador to Saudi Arabia to appeal his case."


Sabat was sentenced to death in November of last year by a Saudi court for practicing witchcraft.


He was arrested in May 2008 by the religious police in Medina, where he was on a pilgrimage before returning to his native Lebanon.

The case against him was brought after he gave advice and made predictions on Lebanese television.


Khansa said Lebanon's ambassador to Saudi Arabia was in contact with Sabat and someone from the embassy had visited him on Wednesday in his jail cell.


"It is very important that we save the life of this one person," she said. "He is not a criminal."


She added that Sabat's family was in shock and that his mother was seriously ill with doctors saying she could die anytime.

Amnesty International meanwhile joined the fray of rights groups who have expressed concern about Sabat's case.


"Ali Hussain Sabat appears to have been convicted solely for the peaceful exercise of his right to freedom of expression," Malcolm Smart, head of Amnesty's Middle East and North Africa programme, said in a press release.


"It is high time the Saudi Arabian government joined the international trend towards a worldwide moratorium on executions," Smart said, urging Lebanese authorities and Saudi King Abdullah to stop the execution.

Saudi Arabia has no clear legal definition on the charge of witchcraft and judges are given discretionary power in determining what constitutes a crime and what sentence to impose.


In November 2007, Mustafa Ibrahim, an Egyptian working as a pharmacist in Saudi Arabia was beheaded after he was found guilty of sorcery.

 

[grydth]

Every time I am tempted to throw mudballs at the Saudis for their savage legal practices, I am reminded of all of the monstrous killers/rapists/child molesters/terrorists set loose early to do it again and again by our (in)justice system here in the USA.....

 

[Sukerkin]

I don't think you are fairly comparing like-to-like there, Grydth.

The Saudi's are setting up to execute someone for being the equivalent of Mystic Meg, not for being a serial rapist.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

ummm.. bye /shrug

 

[grydth]

I don't think you are fairly comparing like-to-like there, Grydth.

The Saudi's are setting up to execute someone for being the equivalent of Mystic Meg, not for being a serial rapist.

No, they certainly are not "like to like". More like absurd and extreme opposites.

The Saudi system is savage by our standards, exacting punishments that shock Westerners. They punish severely for actions, especially religious in nature, which would not even be criminal at all in many lands.

We, on the other - and opposite - hand, have become overcivilized. We allow monsters to victimize us, not once but over and over again. The criminals "got rights" - but innocent children, families on the road, store clerks, etc apparently have none at all. Even when violent felons go to jail, they are frequently released early - look at the killer of the 4 cops in the Pacific Northwest: a proven violent predator, let out how many times?

So, before condemning a society where the accused has no rights, consider first whether we hail from a dysfunctional society where the criminal has all the rights.

 

[CoryKS]

Did he turn him into a newt?

 

[Big Don]

Our "Partners in Peace"

 

[kaizasosei]

Lesson be learned witches! Next time you bust lose waving them arms or castin some spells, you make sure them blinds are DOWN. Especially in countries with wicked draconic laws. Say no to the fires of hell and save your asses today.


j

 

[Senjojutsu]

Someone should tell the Saudi authorities that Europeans knew that the proper way to deal to deal with witches was to burn them alive, or drown them by giving them ‘ye olde water dunk test.

Now in Colonial America we just hung our nineteen witches during the Salem Witch Trials (1692-1693) – or in the twentieth case squished “the guilty” to death – the good old days are gone forever. :wink1:

On a serious note I am confused with a story detail, they are convicting him for his witchcraft activities done outside (Lebanon) of the Saudi Kingdom?

 

[RandomPhantom700]

We, on the other - and opposite - hand, have become overcivilized. We allow monsters to victimize us, not once but over and over again. The criminals "got rights" - but innocent children, families on the road, store clerks, etc apparently have none at all. Even when violent felons go to jail, they are frequently released early - look at the killer of the 4 cops in the Pacific Northwest: a proven violent predator, let out how many times?

So, before condemning a society where the accused has no rights, consider first whether we hail from a dysfunctional society where the criminal has all the rights.

At the risk of complete thread derailmen...yes, In the US the criminal does "got rights"; in fact, that's one of the original tenants of the Bill of Rights. It also happens to be what separates our justice system from ones like Saudi Arabia's, where a man can be convicted and put to death for witchcraft of all things!

Yes, this means some anomalous cases will slip through, and no, our justice system isn't perfect. Even so, US citizens have every right to condemn this witchcraft prosecution (persecution?).

Now, I'm expecting your response to include a number of shock-the-conscience examples of guilty people being released for heinous crimes. Then again, those are exactly what the old mantra, "better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted", refers to.

Sorry, bit of a soapbox issue for me. Carry on.

 

[Ken Morgan]

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Did he turn him into a newt?

he got better

 

[yorkshirelad]

, "better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted",

.

I'm sure you'd have the same sentiment if that guilty "freeman' was to rape and murder your wife or daughter the day he was freed. We've turned into a race of dogooders and it's harmful to society. In general I'm against the death penalty, but when I see hundreds of people, including celebrities crying over the execution of the likes of Tookie Williams, it makes me sick.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I'm sure you'd have the same sentiment if that guilty "freeman' was to rape and murder your wife or daughter the day he was freed. We've turned into a race of dogooders and it's harmful to society. In general I'm against the death penalty, but when I see hundreds of people, including celebrities crying over the execution of the likes of Tookie Williams, it makes me sick.

And I'm sure likewise your opinions wouldn't change if it was a family member or other half of yours who was genuinely innocent and then convicted to life in jail or the death penalty. This isn't an issue that can be broken down that easily, whatever way it works out their will be consequences that can't be controlled.

 

[Sukerkin]

Something to consider is that the official figures for re-offense in Britain are 1%-2%. Sometimes the fear of something is worse than the thing itself.

You can take as implicit in that that I agree that those who are released to re-offend when it comes to serious crimes are a societal threat but you have to balance that threat with certain freedoms, that have serious consequences if curtailed. Each person can only do that risk-balancing for themselves and it is why no single person is normally responsible for deciding if a convicted felon goes free or not once their time is served.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I'm sure you'd have the same sentiment if that guilty "freeman' was to rape and murder your wife or daughter the day he was freed. We've turned into a race of dogooders and it's harmful to society. In general I'm against the death penalty, but when I see hundreds of people, including celebrities crying over the execution of the likes of Tookie Williams, it makes me sick.

Probably not. Then again, that's why I wouldn't be on the jury in that case. A justice system based on revenge is no justice system at all.

Oh, I think you meant "nation" of dogooders, not race. Rights of the accused, at least the ones we're discussing, are part of our national heritage, not racial.

 

[kaizasosei]

Brings to mind, one really good witch movie is 'the hour of the pig' a french movie... not the hour of the devil-the hour of the pig. The pig(actual animal) is one being accused on stand in this movie. Really i find it's a pretty cool movie!


j

 

[Empty Hands]

The whole witchcraft narrative never made much sense to me. If the persecutors really thought these folks had magic powers granted by Satan, wouldn't they expect a little more resistance when they go to arrest/kill them? A fireball or two? At least an Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting? I know I would take some bitches down with me if I was a real sorceror.

Of course, the real reason is that I don't think they truly believe in witchcraft like they say they do. It's a way to punish those outside the social norms, and fulfills certain emotional needs in society. It certainly was that way in Salem.

 

[kaizasosei]

Word. Plus, seriously, if one even tries to understand, wouldn't a sorceror be a greater threat once killed. Not sure just how the principle of justice works exactly. But it seems to me it does work somehow and killing anyone or any animal will basically bring bad karma' or conscience. So i cannot really understand the logic in that. But i see that when people have the means and they are out to do evil, it's practically impossible to stop them.

The idea of being bewitched or receiving items that are bewitched or no good, is an interesting topic actually. Basically a theme in different forms that is part of much of what goes on in reality. But now at least there is science to objectively shed some light. In the past people relied more heavily on their own cultural or religious beacons. Anywhere in modern western society i think people also do, but religion for example is seen by society as more and more of a relic. It's almost like places where religion is not permited, but natural. This scrutiny being imposed by none other than the natural fear and sense of the individuals and the mass.

So science can sometimes be something of a pain to people that persist in ways proven wrong-for example in astronomy.- but that pain is often simply a reaction to what is most probably the truth. In other instances, i do think that science is like a sword which often causes the weilder to start becoming snobish and degrading about knowing better.

Still it's shocking the story itself is shocking on the charges alone.

j

 

[grydth]

At the risk of complete thread derailmen...yes, In the US the criminal does "got rights"; in fact, that's one of the original tenants of the Bill of Rights. It also happens to be what separates our justice system from ones like Saudi Arabia's, where a man can be convicted and put to death for witchcraft of all things!

Yes, this means some anomalous cases will slip through, and no, our justice system isn't perfect. Even so, US citizens have every right to condemn this witchcraft prosecution (persecution?).

Now, I'm expecting your response to include a number of shock-the-conscience examples of guilty people being released for heinous crimes. Then again, those are exactly what the old mantra, "better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted", refers to.

Sorry, bit of a soapbox issue for me. Carry on.

Your reply is in no way a risk of "thread derailment", and the MT Forum benefits from activists willing to take the "soapbox" and defend their views.

Sadly, though, you've misjudged what my "response will include"....

This is a debate about comparative legal systems. I simply contend a system which errs in the criminals' favor has no business criticizing one which errs against the criminals.

Nobody is contending that innocent people should be convicted. But your popular quote on "better 100 guilty men go free" is exactly the problem... because what, exactly, happens when those 100 go free? 100 more women raped? 100 more children molested and murdered? I'm sorry, but turning predators loose over and over again isn't my idea of justice. A society which doesn't protect its innocent citizens has no moral high ground for condemning one which is too harsh on its criminals.

Nobody is arguing in favor of repealing the Bill of Rights..... but where in the Bill of Rights are criminals guaranteed probation? Parole? Early release.... over and over and over again. I don't read the Bill of Rights as a license to kill repetitively.

Only my opinion.