Santi Shi question

[blindsage]

Hey Xue, I know your feelings about Santi Shi being absolutely necessary to doing Xingyi, and that 20 min each side is a beginner, but....on another (internal arts) forum , I've seen a lot of talk by people who say their Xingyi teachers tell them that doing SS for long periods is not necessary (and in one case, that it can be harmful). I know you'll disagree, but I'm wondering if you have any insight into where this different mentality comes from and what the rationale is? (or anybody else?)

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually after rereading al my books I have a slightly different outlook that I had previously and I am not so sure that long periods of time, greater than 30 minutes per side are necessary but then I am very much a beginner here. But I believe it was Wang Ji Wu that said 30 minutes a side was good and I am not going to pretend I know more than someone that did Xingyi until he was 100 years old, I will have to check though to make sure he was the one that said that. I have been on a rather rapid read of multiple Xingyi people of the last couple weeks and they are starting to blend together a bit in my noggin.

From what I have been reading it appears that 15 to 30 minutes per meaning 30 to 60 minutes is a good amount of time. However my previous sifu's sifu did say that to be a beginner you had to stand for 20 minutes per side. However this could be a style difference between Wang Ji Wu and BP Chan. Wang Ji Wu was Shanxi and BP Chan was from a Hebei style. Santi is different between the 2 styles as well.

Also I think the discrepancies come form style differences, teacher interpretation and simple miss understanding from teacher to student. But that happens in just about any art.

But then this is just my opinion based on books and the 2 sifus I have had

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have been thinking about your question and this post for awhile and I was reading something else about Santi Shi from Zhang Yun and in there he talks about being able to stand for about 30 minutes before you move on because then you have the proper foundation. However I am not sure if he means 30 minutes per side or 30 minutes total which would be 15 minutes per side. He also talks about Xingyiquan masters from the past requiring their students to stand in Santi Shi 1 to 2 hours a day.

At different stages of your training, your mind should be used in different ways. Because the training process takes a long time, you should practice daily and have patience. Beginners may be able to maintain the correct posture for only three to five minutes. When you can stand correctly for about thirty minutes, you will have developed a strong foundation for further progress in your practice. Some ancient masters were known to have required that their students practice Santi Shi for at least one to two hours everyday. Without this discipline and the strength that such practice engendered, it was considered pointless to teach other skills.

I have actually sent him an e-mail to ask about Santi and hopefully he will respond.

But back to what this post is about; I have been thinking about this and if I base the answer on everything I have read and been told it leaves me entirely confused but if I think about it based on my little experience with santi shi and Zhan Zhuang and other standing postures form my Taijiquan I do not think there is a definitive answer.

I think the amount of time from person to person may be different. It may take me 30 minutes per side for a total of one hour a day to achieve what you could achieve in 15 minutes per side and 30 minutes per day. No two people are exactly the same externally and no 2 people are exactly the same internally either so to say everyone must stand in santi 20 minutes per side to be considered a beginner seems to be a bit of an over generalization. Of course it could be I do not have anywhere near the understanding of things Xingyiquan and Santi Shi to have any idea as to what I am talking about too.

But for me, for now I still feel that 15 to 20 minutes per side per day is a real good base and develops a sound foundation. Of course if I could also get a response to my e-mail that tells me I am a complete idiot and have no idea what I am talking about.

 

[blindsage]

Great reply Xue. Please let me know the response to your e-mail.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Please let me know the response to your e-mail.

If I get a response I will let you know

 

[Xue Sheng]

Got an answer and it was a great answer too...and that will learn me to doubt those old school Xingyiquan guys.

30 minutes per side, but most important is to stand in santi properly otherwise you are wasting your time.

Old school was and still is 1 to 2 hours per side but not many people in todays world have time for that so 1 hour (30 minutes per side) in proper Santi will give you the needed foundation

 

[mograph]

Xue Sheng, could you describe what Santi feels like at your level of practice?

 

[Xue Sheng]

My level…. which is low, and much lower now that it was a few months ago and much lower than I thought based on my e-mail to a real sifu… but I am good with that… it just tells me I need to work more.

At my best I got to 15 minutes and I would guess around 13 minutes I began to feel connections internally. Nothing magical just that I could move my foot and pretty much get the idea as to the connections to get the power (force) from my foot to my hand. Also it was kind of cool to be able to focus on… well… nothing…. For a bit. Basically focus is on part of your hand, depending on who you want to listen to. However around 15 minutes I did not notice the connections so much as I noticed it was beginning to hurt… a lot… to stand there. So far I have the most experience at realizing that there will be a point where it begins to hurt… a lot.

I also notices a marked improvement in strike applications of Wuxingquan. Basically piquan (for example) I was hitting much harder..

This was different than what I found with Zhan zhuang, which would also end up hurting but more of an uncomfortable feeling than “PAIN”. But both were muscle pain not joint pain.

I found it interesting that after santi I felt more relieved and connected internally than Zhan zhuang where I would feel relaxed and connected. But then I have been told at 20 minutes of santi is where the amaxing stuff starts to happen.. and I have not got there yet.