RVD? How can somebody take this guy seriously?

[RoninX]

I don´t know...just tell me! How can you take seriously a guy who seems to be more concerned about selling his products than speaking from his heart about this art?

I mean...ninjutsu.com? What in the blue hell is this? A shopping? Is this what Ninjutsu is all about? Marketing?

I don´t think there is anything wrong with making money off this art, but i do think there is A LOT of things wrong when commercializing the art seems to assume such a strong importance. C´mon... a person go to ninjutsu.com hoping to find good information about ninjutsu and the only thing they can find is a guy doing his best to sell his products?

Do you see the HUGE EFFORT this guy is doing to promote and sell his products? I mean...banners all over the place almost begging me to buy his products? How can i take seriously a person wich his main concern seems to be making money off the art? I don´t know! Please, tell me.

What´s next? A ninjutsu shopping card?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Isn't this more something for the General ninjutsu forum?

 

[RoninX]

Isn't this more something for the General ninjutsu forum?

You´re right. But i think it´s more important to talk about the subject of the topic that about the section it should be. Mods can move the topic if they find it important.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi RoninX,

Well, Van Donk has his fans, and certainly has his detractors as well. All I will say is that he has his place in the community, and his site is a very good source for a lot of information that can occasionally be hard to find. As to how seriously to take him, well, that will depend on your personal take, and on what exactly you are appraising.

If you are judging the man based solely on his business practices, then that is one thing, and you seem to be doing that here. For the record, though, making a living from martial arts is not an easy thing, so his business practices seem to be quite effective, if somewhat gaudy for your tastes.

But if you are judging his ability, devotion to his training and students based on his business side of things, I would suggest you either change what you are looking at, or get a better idea of what he is like from that side of things (I am reserving my opinions on RVDs take on things). But really, the two are very different aspects of the man. What if you were to see his site as a way of removing his need to have a day job, allowing more time for training, studying, learning, teaching, and passing on the wisdom of the arts he has spent three decades learning? Would that help your opinion of the site?

 

[Almack]

While I don't know RVD, have never trained with the man and don't agree with training soley with DVDs, the service he provides via his website is top knotch.

I've ordered several DVDs and training aids fom his wbsite and they've all arrived within 10 days and I live just outside Edinbuurgh, Scotland. It's good quality stuff too and you can get most of Soke's DVDs from his website.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

He is very efficient in shipping out his products! That much I will give him.

My only gripe is the online training DVD's and video advancement that I have a huge issue with as I have personally observed at least one individual who started that way and their path in the martial science's was severely damage.

Other than that he does provide a service that for a long time was very, very lacking.

 

[cypher]

I'm curious about what you mean? Can you elaborate? You're welcome to shoot me a PM as I've considered getting the course.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Without a real teacher to correct your mistakes you will invariably ingrain bad habits that may impair your future ability. Take for instance I was teaching a new student a private lesson a few weeks ago. This student was learning his grappling skills from bjj clips online. Unfortunately he did not have the proper fundamental skills and had ingrained some bad habits that will take a while to correct. I have observed the same with RVD's online rank advancement people. It is really not the ideal way to learn and if you go that route then more than likely you will have glaring bad habits ingrained in your training.

 

[kenjutsushi]

I think for some people it is the only option they have, I would think that Soke's videos are better but at least with RVD you can get a ranking certificate from Japan. I own his home study course videos, they are good for reference. I only buy Soke's now. When I bought the set in 1993, I didn't even know Soke had videos. It was Richards catalog that brought soke's videos to me.

 

[Tsuki-Yomi]

Do you see the HUGE EFFORT this guy is doing to promote and sell his products?

I see the efforts he makes to not only sell his products, but Soke Hatsumi's, Bud's, Jacks, Moti Nativ's, Dick Severence's, Pedro Fleitas's, and Papa San's. He sells gi's, hanbo's, training shuko, training kusari fundo's, kyoketsu shoge's, and other training equipment. Lots of teachers sell the same stuff, so what are you exactly getting at? Should he promote others, and the art, but not himself?

My only gripe is the online training DVD's and video advancement that I have a huge issue with as I have personally observed at least one individual who started that way and their path in the martial science's was severely damage.

I help out three of his HSC students at least once a week for three hours out of my dojo. They have the same problems that any other beginner has as far as timing, distancing, and angling, but beyond that they all seem to keep right up with the rest of the class at all times. Its my personal experience that you cant judge everyone within a group based on one individual, and as far as I understand five different Yondan in the IBDA succefully obtained their Godans this year alone, several of which began their studies via the HSC. Shihan Richard personally made the trip with each student to Japan for support.

I dont believe the HSC should be used soley because their are alot of things you just cant see, or you must feel in order to learn, but it's a good supplement, and it does help as far as a refresher here and there. I think alot of the students only use those videos and nothing else, and thats where they go wrong, but I have personally met and trained with several that were flat out talented martial artists with good heads on their shoulders.

 

[RoninX]

but Soke Hatsumi's, Bud's, Jacks, Moti Nativ's, Dick Severence's, Pedro Fleitas's, and Papa San's

And your point is...?

 

[Chris Parker]

I believe the point is that RVD is spending his energy and time promoting more than just his products (which is how your original post/complaint aganist him reads), and thus invalidates much of your complaint. As pretty much everyone here has said, RVD ad his website is a great resource for information, no matter what level you are at, from himself, and many others, all the way up to Hatsumi Sensei and his products.

As I said originally, if your complaint is that he is finding a way to make a living, and you believe that it is impossible to have a business plan and thriving company and be a sincere and dedicated martial artist, then perhaps your view is a bit limited. Complain that you think Ninjutsu is overcommercialised, sure, and RVD is certainly at the head of that front, but that in no way is any indication of his dedication to the training and teaching of the art. If anything, it shows higher dedication as he has managed to turn his dedication to the art into his business, meaning that everything he does is centred around it. Many others would love that in their life.

 

[RoninX]

I believe the point is that RVD is spending his energy and time promoting more than just his products

Wich doesn´t make him any less commercial, since he will obviously receive some kind of comission for selling the other shihan´s products.

If you wanna see what the problem is, you just have to see things at a non-ninjutsuka prespective, you go to "Ninjutsu.com" expecting to find something complety different from a shopping store.

If you go to: Genbukan.org, you will see a store. But from + - 11 menu links you will find two pointing to the produtcts. They still commercializing the art, but they focus much more in providing relevant information for the visitors.

Now let´s see RVD:

- Homepage: Full of "buy me products"
- Onlinestore: "Buy me products"
- Ninjutsu study: Full of "Buy me products"
- Home study courses: "Buy me products, again"
- Seminars events: Humm...a little less "buy me products"
- IBDA Opportunity: "Will you buy me something or what?"
- Study Info: "Now you can also be a black belt: Buy me something"
- Dojo locations: "A very rare informative page"
- Resources: "Help me selling something"

So, we have SEVEN menu links pointing for almost the exact same products; SEVEN menu links trying to make money off the art. My point is: Ninjutsu.com is a site created to MAKE MONEY, and in my opinion it should be a more informative site, since "Ninjutsu.com" is the most obvious domain someone will type when searching for Ninjutsu. I´d say that many times "Ninjutsu.com" will be one of the first impressions of someone, when searching for Ninjutsu. And the first impression will be: "Uhhh...Ninja shopping!".



Is there anything wrong with making money? I don´t think so! But when your MAIN concern seems to be "how to make money off this art", then i´ll find that a little bit strange.

The main point is: I´m just sad to see an art like this turned into a such OBVIOUS money scheme, and that´s why i can´t take this guy seriously.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, last one.

RoninX, it appears that you have a problem with RVDs website based, not on what he is doing, not how he is training, not how he is teaching, not how he is spreading the art, but on your personal expectations based on what you expect from his site. It's his site, he can do with it as he wishes, you thinking that just because he got the domain name ninjutsu.com first, he should conform to your values is a little arrogant, to say the least.

Buy the domain name from him, then you can do what you want. But really, you are complaining that one of the biggest resources for Bujinkan informational products (DVDs, books, equipment, membership in the IBDA, links to informative forums, and more) is lacking in information for people searching? I will say that the information provided is more in the form of products rather than just freely listed, so if that is your problem with the structure, you have a point. But it is just you. It is said that if you don't give anything for something, you don't value it, so if you have to purchase the information, then there is a better chance of it being valued than if it was just listed freely.

So, in short, this seems to be your issue with the world not being exactly as you want it to be. And that is something you will have to handle yourself.

 

[RoninX]

I think you didn´t read my post.

I´ll post again:

Is there anything wrong with making money? I don´t think so!

But when your MAIN concern seems to be "how to make money off this art", then i´ll find that a little bit strange.

Hey, i buy stuff from other people! But they don´t offer affiliate programs, and their presence on the internet Ninpo community isn´t only about making money. I really enjoy to read their sites, and i think they can be very informative for those looking to know a little more about the art.

I think there many ways of doing things, and RVD isn´t being much of a "Ninja" on this one.

 

[Chris Parker]

No, I did read your post. Quite closely, actually. You use disqualifying language to constradict yourself, and take the way RVD has set up his website as a personal slight. I stand by my previous post. But I'll explain. Your post (and I'll use the whole thing so nothing is taken out of context), with my comments in blue:

(Originally posted by RoninX) Wich doesn´t make him any less commercial, since he will obviously receive some kind of comission for selling the other shihan´s products.

Which would be standard practice. Although I think you will find that it is less commission, and more just mark-up profits (he would buy them cheaper than we would, and the mark up would take them to the same price you would find elsewhere), although that is just semantics.

But here you dodge the issue. You are asking how can anyone respect RVD because he has a website set up primarily as a retail online store for his own products, as you complained that he was cheapening the art (my words), and one responce you got was that he sells other peoples products as well, which showed that he was providing a service that many people appreciate, and it is not centred only on his products. You refused to see the difference, leading to your asking what the point was, and my answer. You then made the above comment, which is an attempt to slight RVD by turning straight into an attack. You also use deflective language there, which is usually an indication that you actually have no argument against the information presented, which is why you turned straight to the attack.


If you wanna see what the problem is, you just have to see things at a non-ninjutsuka prespective, you go to "Ninjutsu.com" expecting to find something complety different from a shopping store.

Not necessarily. If they go there looking for lists of techniques, written information on history, lists of past headmasters, then it can be hard to find. If you go there looking for reference material, well that's all there. And really, this is a problem from your perspective, your opinion, and that is all. It is what you are wanting to see there, plain and simple. It is not necessarily what others want to see, if it was, and the store was not viable, I feel that it would have either changed or closed a long time ago.


If you go to: Genbukan.org, you will see a store. But from + - 11 menu links you will find two pointing to the produtcts. They still commercializing the art, but they focus much more in providing relevant information for the visitors.

Yes, and if you go to the Bujinkan's main page you will see almost nothing at all. Again, this is all your personal preference. RVDs site is not the Bujinkan's official page, it is not trying to be, it is not designed to be, it is not wanting to be, it is not supposed to be. The Genbukan site you list, however, is supposed to be all those things (for the Genbukan).


Now let´s see RVD:

- Homepage: Full of "buy me products"
- Onlinestore: "Buy me products"
- Ninjutsu study: Full of "Buy me products"
- Home study courses: "Buy me products, again"
- Seminars events: Humm...a little less "buy me products"
- IBDA Opportunity: "Will you buy me something or what?"
- Study Info: "Now you can also be a black belt: Buy me something"
- Dojo locations: "A very rare informative page"
- Resources: "Help me selling something"

Your entire way of writing this implies personal offence, you are feeling personally offended or let down by the site based on what you wanted it to be. Realise that unless you own the domain, or are involved in it on that level, you really get no say. It is not there to make you happy, and if it doesn't, don't visit it. If you're really offended, contact RVD himself and see how far you get (I'm not holding out a lot of hope...).


So, we have SEVEN menu links pointing for almost the exact same products; SEVEN menu links trying to make money off the art. My point is: Ninjutsu.com is a site created to MAKE MONEY, and in my opinion it should be a more informative site, since "Ninjutsu.com" is the most obvious domain someone will type when searching for Ninjutsu. I´d say that many times "Ninjutsu.com" will be one of the first impressions of someone, when searching for Ninjutsu. And the first impression will be: "Uhhh...Ninja shopping!".

As you say here, this is all in your opinion. It is what you think the world should be like. It isn't. Deal with it. Really. I don't know how old you are, but I would say grow up (honestly I don't think that is really restricted by age, though).


Is there anything wrong with making money? I don´t think so! But when your MAIN concern seems to be "how to make money off this art", then i´ll find that a little bit strange.

Okay, here's where your self quotes come from. Let's look at them in context, shall we? "Is there anything wrong with making money?" That is a self-answering rhetoric, designed to put a reader on your side by giving them a question where you will obviously agree with their point of view. "I don't think so!" Emphatically reinforcing the rhetoric, attempting to get a feeling of rapport so your next point is taken on board. "But when your MAIN concern" Distancing language to put yourself (who we aer supposed to be agreeing with at this point) apart from the sentence subject. "seems to be "how to make money off this art"" Putting things in quotation marks is a way of dressing an idea to make it pallatable to others. By putting it in anothers mouth, rather than your own, it is resisted a lot less. Oh, and where exactly did you get the quote from? Typically, this technique is used in interviews to get around personally accusing someone of something, ie. "People say that... It has been said that..." etc. ", then I'll find that a bit strange". Okay, here you have turned to personal language, showing that this is something you feel personally invested in, or in this case, offended by.


The main point is: I´m just sad to see an art like this turned into a such OBVIOUS money scheme, and that´s why i can´t take this guy seriously.

And here you basically say outright that this is something that you have been personally offended by. A business is not an "OBVIOUS money scheme", it is a business. Again, if you don't like it, don't visit it. Simple. But realise that this is all your personal wish and how you feel it "should" be, and that has nothing to do with the reality. Sorry.

As for buying other people's stuff, but they don't offer affiliate programs etc., great, go with them! But a different business plan is not what you are making it out to be, and I would be pretty willing to bet that RVDs business plan is generating much better results than others. Oh, and I have no idea what you're talking about with that last little comment, "not being much of a Ninja on this". You mean adapting to the fact that people shop online these days, and ensuring his company, and by extension his schools survive, goes against Ninjutsu philosophy? You must have a very different understanding...

 

[RoninX]

So much talk to avoid the truth.

 

[jks9199]

You need to come out and explain what you don't like. If you think he's too commercial -- that's your right. But, here on MT, you need to be careful how you go about stating your dislike of someone, because you're moving towards fraudbusting. Keep to factual statements or your OWN opinion, not insinuations, OK?

 

[RoninX]

You need to come out and explain what you don't like. If you think he's too commercial -- that's your right. But, here on MT, you need to be careful how you go about stating your dislike of someone, because you're moving towards fraudbusting. Keep to factual statements or your OWN opinion, not insinuations, OK?

Did i say something that isn´t true?

 

[Chris Parker]

No, but then again, you haven't really said much of anything here. You ask us how anyone can take RVD seriously, then when we give answers, you continue to ask without taking into account what we said. You constantly harp on the fact that RVDs site is not what you want it to be... so what? It's his site, for crying out loud!

One more time, it is not the official Bujinkan site, so stop trying to tell us it should be.

Oh, and really "so much talk to avoid the truth"? What I did was demonstrate (pretty clearly I thought) that the issue is your wishing RVD to use his site differently than he does, and because that is your opinion (and your opinion only), that is not a fact, or the "truth", other than according to you. I'm going to suggest you re-read my posts, but this time take those blinders you have on off. It's much clearer that way.