rooting and takedowns

[PeaceWarrior]

Hello,

I have heard of Taijiquan masters being able to root themselves so well that even many people cannot push them over. I have also heard of something similiar in Aikido, where one can become so firmly rooted in the ground that they cant be picked up or moved by anybody. I am wondering what the mechanics of this are and what training is necessary?

And I thought this would definetly have some application when sparring (or fighting) a grappler whose main intention is to uproot and take to the ground. Has anybody here successfully used these rooting principles in a fight against an experienced grappler whos full intention is to take it to the ground?

Hmm...

 

[kosho]

In Kosho Ryu Kempo we work on rooting. I have seen Pat kelly Sensei work this Rooting and shifting of power. against a Black Belt in BJJ in calf:
he could not be taken down and when the person shooting in was taken off his base. sensei locked him up for the tap. I think this is true to any system when one can truly root themselfs. then it is really hard to be taken down.
kosho

 

[DavidCC]

You would be amazed at what a proper horse stance, with all the anatomical alignments in place, can do for your stability vs momentum. I learned some amazing things about stances and rooting from taking some lessons in Sub-level 4 kenpo.

 

[PeaceWarrior]

In Kosho Ryu Kempo we work on rooting. I have seen Pat kelly Sensei work this Rooting and shifting of power. against a Black Belt in BJJ in calf:
he could not be taken down and when the person shooting in was taken off his base. sensei locked him up for the tap. I think this is true to any system when one can truly root themselfs. then it is really hard to be taken down.
kosho

You would be amazed at what a proper horse stance, with all the anatomical alignments in place, can do for your stability vs momentum. I learned some amazing things about stances and rooting from taking some lessons in Sub-level 4 kenpo.

Very interesting that only kenpoka have responded to this...I was not aware of rooting concepts available in kenpo, I had only heard of it in aikido, tai chi, wing chun, and other internal arts...(not sure if kenpo is internal or external or both)
Very cool! I work on classic horse stance and wing chun horse alot, so hopefully I am developing this rootedness too so I can use it effectively against takedowns.
I have read that one foot should be yin and one foot yang (one foot in heaven and one in earth) to create a true connection with the earth, much like a plug in a socket.

Peace
Keith

 

[kosho]

Just this past tuesday in jaffery NH. my teacher master Evans. we did a work shop (about 3 1/2 hrs) on rooting and what not. it was a great class. and it ties into what you have posted here. when something has structor behind it and can channle its energy threw the body and root itself to the earth. it can't be moved. as the force changes so does the person rooting and changes there angles of rooting...
kosho

 

[Jade Tigress]

Rooting is a huge part of our system. My sifu, who is about the same size as me, can stand on one foot with two other big guys pushing him, and they cannot budge him. I understand the concept of rooting, it just takes lots of training. My sifu said an average of 3 years to really reach the point of being able to become immovable against a larger opponent. It has nothing to do with strength. You have to learn to sink your weight and proper breathing from the dantian is essential. It does have alot to do with chi and channeling the energy into the ground so to speak. Also, a proper stance is essential. Even at the start with our system, you can become solidly grounded with the right stance. These are things we train every single class.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Rooting is a huge part of our system. My sifu, who is about the same size as me, can stand on one foot with two other big guys pushing him, and they cannot budge him. I understand the concept of rooting, it just takes lots of training. My sifu said an average of 3 years to really reach the point of being able to become immovable against a larger opponent. It has nothing to do with strength. You have to learn to sink your weight and proper breathing from the dantian is essential. It does have alot to do with chi and channeling the energy into the ground so to speak. Also, a proper stance is essential. Even at the start with our system, you can become solidly grounded with the right stance. These are things we train every single class.

I thought you took Southern Mantis, If so why are you talking about my Yang style Sifu? I have never seen you in class!!!

My Yang style Sifu is much smaller than me and I cannot move him. But there is more to rooting than being unmovable. If my Sifu and I are doing push hands and if he gets his hand over mine I cannot lift my hand nor can I uproot him. If I do use force to try and lift my hand I will find myself on the floor or flying backwards a few feet after he redirects my force and without a good root he could not do this. But if I use small circles and have a good root I can redirect it and get out of it.

There is rooting specific training that can be practiced but then we are crossing that line into what has come to be considered by many today a bad thing, antiquated and useless.... “STANCE TRAINING”.

I however do not consider it useless, antiquated or a bad thing; sorry I'm just a dinosaur I guess

 

[Jade Tigress]

I thought you took Southern Mantis, If so why are you talking about my Yang style Sifu? I have never seen you in class!!!

My Yang style Sifu is much smaller than me and I cannot move him. But there is more to rooting than being unmovable. If my Sifu and I are doing push hands and if he gets his hand over mine I cannot lift my hand nor can I uproot him. If I do use force to try and lift my hand I will find myself on the floor or flying backwards a few feet after he redirects my force and without a good root he could not do this. But if I use small circles and have a good root I can redirect it and get out of it.

There is rooting specific training that can be practiced but then we are crossing that line into what has come to be considered by many today a bad thing, antiquated and useless.... “STANCE TRAINING”.

I however do not consider it useless, antiquated or a bad thing; sorry I'm just a dinosaur I guess

LOL! No...but there are similarities for sure. And you hit the nail on the head with stance training. It is anything BUT antiquated and useless. Without a good stance your kung fu is worthless.

 

[Andrew Green]

Simple question, if it worked as well as some people claim, why on earth are wrestling teams not training this, and why would they laugh at you if you went in and suggested it?

 

[pete]

Simple question, if it worked as well as some people claim, why on earth are wrestling teams not training this, and why would they laugh at you if you went in and suggested it?

do wrestling teams have the 3 years quoted to learn the art and develop the skill? the 'roids might work a little quicker. i guess those who laugh last laughs best...

 

[Andrew Green]

Yes.

 

[DavidCC]

Rooting is a huge part of our system. My sifu, who is about the same size as me, can stand on one foot with two other big guys pushing him, and they cannot budge him. I understand the concept of rooting, it just takes lots of training. My sifu said an average of 3 years to really reach the point of being able to become immovable against a larger opponent...

Like this?

 

[Jade Tigress]

Like this?

Crap. I couldn't view it. Just got a black screen with audio.

 

[DavidCC]

Crap. I couldn't view it. Just got a black screen with audio.

need new quicktime? I'll post on youtube

try this shortly

 

[Andrew Green]

That Criss Angel guy does some pretty amazing stuff too

That, is a demonstration, a parlour trick, I can do unbendable arm demos too, but when it comes down to it, they don't mean much.

 

[PeaceWarrior]

There is rooting specific training that can be practiced but then we are crossing that line into what has come to be considered by many today a bad thing, antiquated and useless.... “STANCE TRAINING”.

I however do not consider it useless, antiquated or a bad thing; sorry I'm just a dinosaur I guess

Then I must be a dinosaur too! The reason people think stance training is "antiquated and useless" is because they either dont fully understand it, or they tried it and they didnt get immediate results, so "obviously it doesnt work." I would be interested int this rooting specific training, if you would be kind enough to tell me....

Simple question, if it worked as well as some people claim, why on earth are wrestling teams not training this, and why would they laugh at you if you went in and suggested it?

You answered your own question, because most if not all wrestling coaches would laugh at the very idea, therefore not giving it any merit, or any chance whatsoever. They would automatically shut the door on learning, a sad thing. Americans tend to be very close minded when it comes to stuff like this, because to them it seems like "fantasy"- which is fine, they don't have to believe it. But does that mean its not true? Does that mean nobody can do these things? This kind of close mindedness is why people disregard stance training. In America, if it doesnt get instant results, its worthless.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I saw this post probably right after PeaceWarrior started it and I decided not to get involved in it because I was fairly sure that it would, no matter how sincere PeaceWarrior was in posting it, inevitably degenerate into a my way is better than your way argument. Instead of an attempt to understand and learn as I believe it was originally intended.

With that said and my original trepidation for NOT getting involved in this thread proving to be true; Lets just get it out of the way now and save time.

Rooting and stance training is good
No its not
Yes it is
No its not
Yes it is
No its not
Yes it is
No its not
Yes it is
No its not
Yes it is
No its not
Yes it is
No its not
Yes it is
No its not
Yes it is

I leave you to your argument.

XS

 

[Xue Sheng]

Then I must be a dinosaur too! The reason people think stance training is "antiquated and useless" is because they either dont fully understand it, or they tried it and they didnt get immediate results, so "obviously it doesnt work." I would be interested int this rooting specific training, if you would be kind enough to tell me....

I will PM it to you later.

 

[Andrew Green]

Wrestling is a international sport, so it has nothing to do with "America". All it would take to convince a coach to give it a try would be ONE guy walking in the door and using this method to stop all his wrestlers attempts to take them down.

 

[Jade Tigress]

need new quicktime? I'll post on youtube

try this shortly

Thanks for posting that. No, it's actually quite different. Not done in a horse stance, and not with arms up like that.