Regional prevalence of the Palgue poomsae

[J. Pickard]

anybody have any idea why the palgue forms so prevalent in my neck of the woods (west Michigan US)? I've recently been trying to do group workouts with other schools near mine, within about 25 miles. It's been a lot of fun! Some really good schools, a few not so great schools, but all of them with lots of passionate participants. One thing I noticed is all of the schools we trained with that called themselves TKD except ours do the palgue series of forms. The common theme is they don't do them in any particular order (9th gup belts doing Palgue sam jang as the only form they know?) and are not even a little familiar with the Taegeuk poomsae or even the older Pyung ahn. Any idea how a collection of forms that was so short lived in Korea has become the prevalent forms in my area? I will add that many of the TKD schools didn't know any lineage beyond one generation removed from their current instructor. It's an interesting phenomenon and I can't place it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

anybody have any idea why the palgue forms so prevalent in my neck of the woods (west Michigan US)? I've recently been trying to do group workouts with other schools near mine, within about 25 miles. It's been a lot of fun! Some really good schools, a few not so great schools, but all of them with lots of passionate participants. One thing I noticed is all of the schools we trained with that called themselves TKD except ours do the palgue series of forms.

The Palgwae forms were the first Officially Official Real TKD forms. A lot of people learned them, moved here, and separated themselves from the mainline KTA (and later, Kukkiwon) organization. And some (I believe @skribs has said his school is one example) teach something they call Palgwae forms, but which are, in fact, something entirely different.

The common theme is they don't do them in any particular order (9th gup belts doing Palgue sam jang as the only form they know?)

That strikes me as odd. Our branch of the MDK teaches the Palgwae forms. They are numbered 1-8 for a reason, with each successive form building on the previous forms.

and are not even a little familiar with the Taegeuk poomsae

If they're not awarding KKW rank, then there is zero reason for them to learn the Taegeuk forms. If they are, then it's a problem. A common problem. There are a LOT of KKW schools that do not teach the KKW curriculum, for various reasons. And I support their right to teach whatever forms and curriculum they prefer. But when you sign off on a KKW rank application, one of things you are affirming is that the person you are recommending for promotion knows the KKW curriculum for that rank and can perform it at an acceptable level. It seems to me that promoting integrity while lying on rank applications is displaying a lack of integrity.

or even the older Pyung ahn.

Same same. If they're not teaching Shotokan, then the forms used by that system are irrelevant to students.

Any idea how a collection of forms that was so short lived in Korea has become the prevalent forms in my area? I will add that many of the TKD schools didn't know any lineage beyond one generation removed from their current instructor. It's an interesting phenomenon and I can't place it.

Lineage isn't really all that important to the vast majority of students. This is true not just of TKD. I cannot tell you how many people I've talked to who couldn't even tell you the specific branch they're studying; it's just "karate" or "kung fu" or whatever. One of my grandkids got a 1st Dan at 14. He just says "karate" and doesn't have a clue beyond that. He now trains BJJ and hasn't a clue which branch.

 

[skribs]

If they're not awarding KKW rank, then there is zero reason for them to learn the Taegeuk forms. If they are, then it's a problem. A common problem. There are a LOT of KKW schools that do not teach the KKW curriculum, for various reasons. And I support their right to teach whatever forms and curriculum they prefer. But when you sign off on a KKW rank application, one of things you are affirming is that the person you are recommending for promotion knows the KKW curriculum for that rank and can perform it at an acceptable level. It seems to me that promoting integrity while lying on rank applications is displaying a lack of integrity.

I would say this is a gray area and not exactly black and white. Although this may be because of where I came from. I think it's more true today, that they are trying for stricter standards enforcement. But I think it's more of a political issue than a technical one. (Just like a lot of recent changes and proposed changes).

In my experience working for the military (not in the military, just working for them), you get a new officer into a position, and they have to add a new program so they can meet their performance objectives and get their next rank. It doesn't matter if we already have a program that does what they do, but we need a new one. This is my opinion on a lot of the new Kukkiwon curriculum (such as the new self-defense curriculum or the proposed competition forms). It is also probably the opinion people had regarding the Taegeuks when they were first implemented, and Masters of today are following the forms that their Masters taught them. At least, that's where my Master said his forms came from - his Master before him.

And some (I believe @skribs has said his school is one example) teach something they call Palgwae forms, but which are, in fact, something entirely different.

I wouldn't call our early Palgwe forms (1, 2, and 3) to be entirely different. Palgwe 1 in particular was very similar to the others I saw. Overall it was the same, it's just I saw about 4 or 5 different versions. Some did outside blocks instead of inside blocks, some did a back stance where others did a front stance, but the overall pattern of the form was very similar. It would be like if you and I read the same book, but had a different interpretation of the voices when reading the dialog.

By the time you get to Palgwe 6, though, they are entirely different. There might be one or two moves shared between the official and what I learned. It would be like if I were reading Harry Potter and you were reading Lord of the Rings. Yeah, they both have a wizard that everyone loves and a dark lord trying to take over, but that's about where the similarities end.

Maybe one day we can have a Zoom meeting or something and I can show you what I mean.

anybody have any idea why the palgue forms so prevalent in my neck of the woods (west Michigan US)? I've recently been trying to do group workouts with other schools near mine, within about 25 miles. It's been a lot of fun! Some really good schools, a few not so great schools, but all of them with lots of passionate participants. One thing I noticed is all of the schools we trained with that called themselves TKD except ours do the palgue series of forms. The common theme is they don't do them in any particular order (9th gup belts doing Palgue sam jang as the only form they know?) and are not even a little familiar with the Taegeuk poomsae or even the older Pyung ahn. Any idea how a collection of forms that was so short lived in Korea has become the prevalent forms in my area? I will add that many of the TKD schools didn't know any lineage beyond one generation removed from their current instructor. It's an interesting phenomenon and I can't place it.

I can't speak for your neck of the woods. I can for my experience and opinions. I always learned the Palgwe forms with a little bit of a different style to Taegeuk, a style I personally prefer. The stances were deeper and wider. We chambered slightly differently. In Palgwe, we would chamber with our off-hand in a hinge position. In Taegeuk, we would chamber by having our off-hand "point" to where the technique is going. Same with kicks. A kick in Palgwe and our hands were usually in a low hinge, where a kick in Taegeuk and our hands were clutched to our chest. Palgwe forms also tend to use more of our shoulders and bigger motions, where a Taegeuk form is more a flick from the elbow.

With that said, I'd rather not do the Palgwe forms if I opened my own school, for two different reasons.

On one hand, if I am going to do a KKW/WT school, then I would rather do the Taegeuks, so there's more interoperability between my school and others. It legitimizes the school (as @Dirty Dog suggests). It opens up more tournament opportunities. Even if a tournament has an "Open Poomsae" category, it's probably being judged by folks familiar with the Taegeuk style, who might look at deviations from the style as bad technique instead of different.

It would make it easier for other KKW students to come in, or for my students to easily join another KKW school. I could do both, but I don't see a big enough difference between them to warrant confusing the students with two different styles.

On the other hand, if I am going to go unaffiliated, then I would rather use the Palgwe style to make my own forms, which do not contain issues I have with the Palgwe forms.

One advantage of the Taegeuks over the Palgwes is that they mostly end on the same spot (except Taegeuk 1), where in the Palgwes you typically end behind the starting line. This is true of the official ones as well, because (as I mentioned above), our Palgwe 1 is nearly identical to the others.

I also don't like sections that end in a block. You see these in both the Taegeuks and the Palgwe forms. I see it in Taegeuks 2-7 and many of the Yudanja. I also see it in (our version of) Palgwe 1, 3, 5, 7, and 8. There are also a few moves that are in our higher-level Palgwe forms that just don't fit my vision of what a form should be (such as a jumping crescent kick into a crouched position).

So in this case, I would go with something inspired by the Palgwe forms, but that fits into the rules I would place on myself for designing a form.

 

[J. Pickard]

Lineage isn't really all that important to the vast majority of students.

I get that, I just figured that maybe their lineage has something to do with it but hard to say if you don't know your lineage. So really what it seems like is when the Taegeuk forms were rolled out some instructors in the states didn't want to take the time to learn/teach a new set of forms and figured since the Koreans aren't coming over and checking everyone they would just stick with the palgue. Seems lazy. I still can't figure out how you get a 4th dan in any type of TKD that would have used the palgue without at least knowing about the taegeuk poomsae. Is there any association that anyone is aware of that still accepts the Palgue forms for rank testing or is it primarily independent schools from your experience?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would say this is a gray area and not exactly black and white.

Not really. The KKW standard requires the taegeuk forms for geup ranks. When you sign the recommendation, you are saying they know this material and can perform it at an acceptable level. If they don't, you're lying. There's nothing gray about it.

I wouldn't call our early Palgwe forms (1, 2, and 3) to be entirely different. Palgwe 1 in particular was very similar to the others I saw. Overall it was the same, it's just I saw about 4 or 5 different versions.

If you're teaching the form with different techniques than intended, you're either teaching a different form, or you're teaching it wrong.

Some did outside blocks instead of inside blocks, some did a back stance where others did a front stance, but the overall pattern of the form was very similar. It would be like if you and I read the same book, but had a different interpretation of the voices when reading the dialog.

Those are not a matter of interpretation.

Maybe one day we can have a Zoom meeting or something and I can show you what I mean.

I know what you mean. I've seen dozens of altered forms online.

I also don't like sections that end in a block.

A block is a strike. This is a concept you have struggled with in the past, and it seems you still do.

I still can't figure out how you get a 4th dan in any type of TKD that would have used the palgue without at least knowing about the taegeuk poomsae.

If by "knowing about" you mean "have heard of" then I suspect you won't find too many 4th Dans who have never heard of the taegeuk poomsae. If you mean "knowing how to perform" then the answer is obvious. Their art doesn't use them, so why should they learn them?

Is there any association that anyone is aware of that still accepts the Palgue forms for rank testing or is it primarily independent schools from your experience?

The American MooDukKwan Taekwondo Association does. The palgwae forms are mandatory for advancement through the geup ranks. When a student is getting ready for promotion to 1st Dan, they can choose MDK, KKW, or both. If they choose KKW, then they learn the taegeuk poomsae. For interested students, I also teach the (non-sine wave) Chang Hon tul.

 

[skribs]

@Dirty Dog

Did you bring me in this thread just to argue with me? Because it seems like that's what you did when you mentioned me in the first post, based on how this conversation has turned sour in a matter of seconds.

Not really. The KKW standard requires the taegeuk forms for geup ranks. When you sign the recommendation, you are saying they know this material and can perform it at an acceptable level. If they don't, you're lying. There's nothing gray about it.

This is what I see on the promotion request form:

I honestly recommend the above person as a well-qualified applicant for the promotion test of Dan/Poom grades.
I don't see anything on the form that lists specifically what a "well-qualified applicant" is.

The Kukkiwon website lists the subjects of the promotion test.
World Taekwondo Headquarters
1. Practical Test shall be comprised of: Poomsae (Forms), Kyorugi (Sparring), Kyokpa (Breaking wood) and other special techniques.

There is no list of which Poomsae is required.

That's not to say there isn't a list somewhere that specifies that Taegeuks must be used, but the two resources I found were vague enough that it would seem open to interpretation. A student capable of performing poomsae, kyorugi, and kyokpa would seem well-qualified, at least by the evidence I was able to find. Palgwes are poomsae. Hence the gray area.

You also quoted the first sentence of the paragraph, and not the rest which said that your position may be more true today as Kukkiwon is becoming more rigid in their standards. Why not at least acknowledge that? Or are you just arguing to argue?

If you're teaching the form with different techniques than intended, you're either teaching a different form, or you're teaching it wrong.

Those are not a matter of interpretation.

A block is a strike. This is a concept you have struggled with in the past, and it seems you still do.

It's not a concept I've struggled with. It's one I rejected. You (and others) have struggled with the fact that I disagree with you. But that's your struggle, not mine.

It seems a concept you're struggling with, though. Because right before claiming a block is a strike, you also say that if you teach a form different, you're wrong; and that techniques are not open to interpretation. So which is it?

Or is it only open to interpretation by you?

I know what you mean. I've seen dozens of altered forms online.

I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember you one time suggesting I show you the forms I was talking about. Or at least I had mentioned it and you seemed open to the idea. I guess I was mistaken.

 

[Dirty Dog]

@Dirty Dog

Did you bring me in this thread just to argue with me? Because it seems like that's what you did when you mentioned me in the first post, based on how this conversation has turned sour in a matter of seconds.

No, I mentioned you as an example of someone who was taught Palgwae forms that weren't really Palgwae forms. That's why I said exactly that in my post.

This is what I see on the promotion request form:

I honestly recommend the above person as a well-qualified applicant for the promotion test of Dan/Poom grades.
I don't see anything on the form that lists specifically what a "well-qualified applicant" is.

The Kukkiwon website lists the subjects of the promotion test.
World Taekwondo Headquarters
1. Practical Test shall be comprised of: Poomsae (Forms), Kyorugi (Sparring), Kyokpa (Breaking wood) and other special techniques.

There is no list of which Poomsae is required.

That's not to say there isn't a list somewhere that specifies that Taegeuks must be used, but the two resources I found were vague enough that it would seem open to interpretation. A student capable of performing poomsae, kyorugi, and kyokpa would seem well-qualified, at least by the evidence I was able to find. Palgwes are poomsae. Hence the gray area.

That's a pretty weasel way to look at it. It's completely clear what the KKW expects.

You also quoted the first sentence of the paragraph, and not the rest which said that your position may be more true today as Kukkiwon is becoming more rigid in their standards. Why not at least acknowledge that? Or are you just arguing to argue?

I don't quote things I'm not replying to. I have no opinion on the supposed changes in KKW standards, especially since their official position has been that there has been no change.

It seems a concept you're struggling with, though. Because right before claiming a block is a strike, you also say that if you teach a form different, you're wrong; and that techniques are not open to interpretation. So which is it?

Movement is movement. A block is a strike. A strike is a block. The movements are given names to facilitate teaching, but doing so also builds fences around the movement for those who have not developed the ability to see movement as movement.

I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember you one time suggesting I show you the forms I was talking about. Or at least I had mentioned it and you seemed open to the idea. I guess I was mistaken.

There is a difference between being open to watching your forms and not understanding the concept of forms being changed.
I'm happy to watch anyone do forms. Including you. But watching is extremely unlikely to change anything. The forms you call "palgwae" are no longer the palgwae forms. Which is fine, as I have said before. I am not saying (nor have I ever said) that any one set of forms is The One Way to learn. I practice and teach multiple form sets. They all have their pros and cons. But when I teach the Palgwae forms, or the Chang Hon forms, you can be assured that they ARE those forms, not something else that I've labeled palgwae. And when I sign a KKW promotion recommendation, you can be assured that the student knows the KKW curriculum and can walk into any KKW school and perform at a creditable level.

 

[skribs]

That's a pretty weasel way to look at it. It's completely clear what the KKW expects.

Looking at officially published documentation is a "pretty weasel way". That makes about as much sense as all the other mental gymnastics you're doing.

Movement is movement. A block is a strike. A strike is a block. The movements are given names to facilitate teaching, but doing so also builds fences around the movement for those who have not developed the ability to see movement as movement.

Or people discerning enough to be able to tell the subtle differences from a block, a strike, or a throw. I know it's something you're struggling with, but eventually you might figure it out.

 

[J. Pickard]

If by "knowing about" you mean "have heard of" then I suspect you won't find too many 4th Dans who have never heard of the taegeuk poomsae. If you mean "knowing how to perform" then the answer is obvious. Their art doesn't use them, so why should they learn them?
The American MooDukKwan Taekwondo Association does. The palgwae forms are mandatory for advancement through the geup ranks. When a student is getting ready for promotion to 1st Dan, they can choose MDK, KKW, or both. If they choose KKW, then they learn the taegeuk poomsae. For interested students, I also teach the (non-sine wave) Chang Hon tul.

Yeah, I mean "have heard of". the instructors of two of the five TKD schools we did joint training with had never heard of Taegeuk which I found odd. That's interesting that MDK does palgwe. I wonder if some of the schools are MDK lineage and overtime just cut ties. Thanks for the insight.

 

[WaterGal]

So really what it seems like is when the Taegeuk forms were rolled out some instructors in the states didn't want to take the time to learn/teach a new set of forms and figured since the Koreans aren't coming over and checking everyone they would just stick with the palgue.

Pretty much, yeah. Also, if you have an established school, changing what forms you teach means retraining your instructors, retraining your students..... I think you'd have to carefully plan out the transition or your staff & students will get annoyed at you. I'm familiar with a KKW TKD school that was still teaching Palgwe until at least a few years ago for this reason. (I feel like there are ways you could handle this, like if you start teaching Taegeuk forms to just your new beginners, and then transition your color belt curriculum to Taegeuk forms as that group of students move up through the ranks.)

The Kukkiwon website lists the subjects of the promotion test.
World Taekwondo Headquarters
1. Practical Test shall be comprised of: Poomsae (Forms), Kyorugi (Sparring), Kyokpa (Breaking wood) and other special techniques.

There is no list of which Poomsae is required.

That's not to say there isn't a list somewhere that specifies that Taegeuks must be used, but the two resources I found were vague enough that it would seem open to interpretation. A student capable of performing poomsae, kyorugi, and kyokpa would seem well-qualified, at least by the evidence I was able to find. Palgwes are poomsae. Hence the gray area.

The Kukkiwon website is a badly-translated high-level overview. The Kukkiwon Poom/Dan examiner course book (Mr WaterGal has taken the class, not me, but I have the textbook he got on hand) specifies that for 1st dan, the student is required to demonstrate Taegeuk 8 and at least 1 other Taegeuk form. I think they're trying to say that the other Taegeuk form will be chosen by the examiner, but the book as just as poorly translated into English as anything else from KKW. Also, the KKW textbooks, forms textbook, and forms videos specifically and only depict Taegeuk forms. Kukkiwon is not vague about this.

 

[WaterGal]

The common theme is they don't do them in any particular order (9th gup belts doing Palgue sam jang as the only form they know?)

It sounds like they're probably using what's called a "rotating curriculum". This is a way of structuring your curriculum so that everybody in the same level of class is working on the same material, so the teacher doesn't have to divide their attention between different groups but can teach everybody for the entire class time. Now, I don't know the Palgwe forms. But let's say that in some Hypothetical Forms Set, Forms 1-3 are all pretty basic "block, step, punch" kind of forms. In that case, there's no real reason why a white belt student can't start with, say, Form 2, work on it for 3 months, learn it, and then do Form 3 for 3 months, and then Form 1 after that, and then move up to the advanced color belt class to learn the other forms. It's not the traditional order, sure, but they're still learning it all.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yeah, I mean "have heard of". the instructors of two of the five TKD schools we did joint training with had never heard of Taegeuk which I found odd. That's interesting that MDK does palgwe. I wonder if some of the schools are MDK lineage and overtime just cut ties. Thanks for the insight.

I am sure some of them are MDK, either historically or current. But that's not really necessary.

The palgwae forms were developed by the KTA and taught to all instructors (theoretically) as part of the effort to unify TKD under one giant Borg-like umbrella. Between this and the switch to the taegeuk forms, a LOT of Koreans emigrated, to start schools in other countries. A number of those instructors elected not to change forms, and I doubt which Kwan they originally trained with had much to do with that choice.

TL/DR: You can get an idea when a particular group split by looking at their forms.

I think you can tell a lot about a Korean MA school by looking at the name of the system and the forms taught. Using the MDK as an example (because obviously I'm most intimately familiar with it). GM HWANG Kee formed the MDK, teaching the Shotokan forms that he had studied in Japan, adding material from the Northern Chinese, and calling it Tang Soo Do. Tang Soo Do is the Korean pronunciation of the Kanji that Japanese pronounce "Karate-Do". And I believe most of the Kwan used that term. GM HWANG joined the KTA and taught TaeKwonDo. He split off prior to the introduction of the palgwae forms and returned to teaching Tang Soo Do. About 1/3 of the MDK went with him. He eventually changed the name to Soo Bahk Do, reportedly because he obtained a copy of the Muye Dobo Tongji and claimed to have re-discovered various secrets of his 2000 year old art from it. I think this claim needs to be taken with a rather large grain of salt. I've got the Muye Dobo Tongji. It's quite interesting, but it contains virtually nothing related to unarmed combat. So you can find schools that are MDK TKD and teach the KKW Curriculum. These are schools that never split. You can find MDK TKD that teach the palgwae forms. These are schools that split after the introduction of the taegeuk forms. Obviously some schools overlap (like us). You can find MDK TSD schools, which split from the KTA with GM HWANG and then split from him. And you can find MDK SBD, which are schools who have stayed with GM HWANG and his teachings throughout.

Pretty much, yeah. Also, if you have an established school, changing what forms you teach means retraining your instructors, retraining your students..... I think you'd have to carefully plan out the transition or your staff & students will get annoyed at you. I'm familiar with a KKW TKD school that was still teaching Palgwe until at least a few years ago for this reason. (I feel like there are ways you could handle this, like if you start teaching Taegeuk forms to just your new beginners, and then transition your color belt curriculum to Taegeuk forms as that group of students move up through the ranks.)

It's not really that difficult to do. If your instructors can't learn the forms in a few weeks, you need better instructors. I say that because the taegeuks don't have anything in them that a Dan holder doesn't already know. They're just in a different order, basically. When I decided to add KKW rank, it took me 2-3 weeks of not particularly hard work.

Then just add the taegeuk forms to your curriculum. Right alongside your other forms, if you like. Students will be able to learn them both. In our system, we have 6 Kicho (basic) forms, the 8 palgwae, the 8 taeguk (for those who want KKW certification) and the yudanja forms, of course. And the (non-sine wave) Chang Hon tul for those who really like forms. Kicho 1 is taught and must be performed (with very low standards, basically just fumble through without being prompted) before a student is given a dobak and a white belt. That gives them a bit of time to try things out without investing any money. They do Kicho 1 again (at a higher standard) for promotion to 9th geup. At 9th geup, they learn Kicho 2 and Palgwae 1, and so forth. So our students, at least, are accustomed to learning more than one form at a time.

This might be more difficult in some for-profit schools, because many of them have an expected schedule for promotions, and this could require some juggling of that.

The Kukkiwon website is a badly-translated high-level overview. The Kukkiwon Poom/Dan examiner course book (Mr WaterGal has taken the class, not me, but I have the textbook he got on hand) specifies that for 1st dan, the student is required to demonstrate Taegeuk 8 and at least 1 other Taegeuk form. I think they're trying to say that the other Taegeuk form will be chosen by the examiner, but the book as just as poorly translated into English as anything else from KKW. Also, the KKW textbooks, forms textbook, and forms videos specifically and only depict Taegeuk forms. Kukkiwon is not vague about this.

Well said. Skribs gets understandably upset by comments about this sort. I get it. KKW rank awarded without KKW curriculum is technically invalid. That doesn't invalidate what you've learned, of course. And the fault lies with the instructor who lies on the promotion form. Personally, I think if the KKW really wants to assimilate everyone under some umbrella organization, they'd be better off eliminating that requirement. Just sign off saying the person has learned the curriculum for your school and performs that curriculum at an acceptable level. Because that is the reality of what is actually done today.

It sounds like they're probably using what's called a "rotating curriculum". This is a way of structuring your curriculum so that everybody in the same level of class is working on the same material, so the teacher doesn't have to divide their attention between different groups but can teach everybody for the entire class time. Now, I don't know the Palgwe forms. But let's say that in some Hypothetical Forms Set, Forms 1-3 are all pretty basic "block, step, punch" kind of forms. In that case, there's no real reason why a white belt student can't start with, say, Form 2, work on it for 3 months, learn it, and then do Form 3 for 3 months, and then Form 1 after that, and then move up to the advanced color belt class to learn the other forms. It's not the traditional order, sure, but they're still learning it all.

The palgwae forms build on each other in much the same way the taegeuk forms do. You can learn any formset in any order, but I honestly think it would be more difficult. The kicho forms are all pretty basic. Hence the name.

Our method is to teach the forms for the students rank. When forms are practiced in the dojang, we start with Kicho 1 and work our way up. Then Palgwae 1 and work up. Then Koryo and.. you get the point, I'm sure. When a student reaches their highest form of that set, they keep doing in while the higher ranked students move on to the next. Sometimes this is done one form at a time. Sometimes we "climb the mountain", which means starting with Kicho 1 and moving through the progression through every form you know without stopping. It's surprisingly aerobic, when done right. Sometimes when they climb the mountain, we also have them climb back down.

This method ensures that students still practice their lower forms. And it means that the forms they practice the most will be their newest and (obviously) the ones they need to practice the most.

 

[WaterGal]

It's not really that difficult to do. If your instructors can't learn the forms in a few weeks, you need better instructors. I say that because the taegeuks don't have anything in them that a Dan holder doesn't already know. They're just in a different order, basically. When I decided to add KKW rank, it took me 2-3 weeks of not particularly hard work.

Oh, it's definitely doable, yeah, I agree with you. But I know every time we've made any adjustments to our curriculum, we get some people who complain about it. I can understand some school owners feeling like it would be a lot of complaining for something that, honestly IMO, is a bit arbitrary.

Personally, I think if the KKW really wants to assimilate everyone under some umbrella organization, they'd be better off eliminating that requirement. Just sign off saying the person has learned the curriculum for your school and performs that curriculum at an acceptable level. Because that is the reality of what is actually done today.

I feel like they had two options, which is 1) to do what you suggest, and to maybe become more of a style-neutral organization for all Korean martial arts, or 2) to be stricter about making sure that this instructors are teaching the official KKW TKD curriculum. It seems like they've chosen to do the second one.

Starting next year they're going to be requiring all instructors to have passed the first level KKW Master Instructor course in order to be able to submit people for black belts (which includes performing the Taegeuk forms), so that should at least fix the problem of people who are unknowingly teaching non-KKW curriculum and giving out KKW rank. Now, of course, people can still knowingly teach non-KKW stuff and give out KKW rank, but I suppose it's good to start with the assumption of ignorance. Lots of people are probably just doing what their teacher did.

The palgwae forms build on each other in much the same way the taegeuk forms do. You can learn any formset in any order, but I honestly think it would be more difficult. The kicho forms are all pretty basic. Hence the name.

We use a rotating curriculum for the Taegeuk forms, and IMO it's been a big improvement for our classes over a more traditional approach. Of course, you have to be thoughtful when you develop the program, because there are forms with more basic techniques and others with more advanced techniques. It wouldn't be reasonable to teach Taegeuk 8 to white belt, for example. But Taegeuk 1 and 2 have the same techniques in them. And the same thing applies to other curriculum areas, like you need to know a side kick before you do a flying side kick, but a side kick and a roundhouse kick are the same difficulty. So as long as you think about what things actually build on each other and what things are kind of interchangeable, it can be a good approach.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Oh, it's definitely doable, yeah, I agree with you. But I know every time we've made any adjustments to our curriculum, we get some people who complain about it. I can understand some school owners feeling like it would be a lot of complaining for something that, honestly IMO, is a bit arbitrary.

It's totally arbitrary, agreed. People in general are frequently resistant to change, for lots of reasons. It might be easier to say "get over it, this is how it's going to be" when the school is not for profit.

I feel like they had two options, which is 1) to do what you suggest, and to maybe become more of a style-neutral organization for all Korean martial arts, or 2) to be stricter about making sure that this instructors are teaching the official KKW TKD curriculum. It seems like they've chosen to do the second one.

Well summarized. Except I don't think they're really doing a good job on their chosen path.

Starting next year they're going to be requiring all instructors to have passed the first level KKW Master Instructor course in order to be able to submit people for black belts (which includes performing the Taegeuk forms), so that should at least fix the problem of people who are unknowingly teaching non-KKW curriculum and giving out KKW rank.

Frankly, this statement baffles me. I mean, there are certainly plenty of people like @skribs who have been given KKW rank without being taught the KKW curriculum. But he knows that the forms he has been taught are not the KKW forms. And while it has never been explicitly stated, that I can recall, I believe his Master is well aware that his curriculum does not match that of the KKW. I've known any number of instructors who, likewise, taught something other than the KKW curriculum. I do not think I've ever met someone who was unaware that what they taught wasn't what the KKW wants taught. I just don't think there are very many teaching non-KKW forms without knowing that they are doing so.

We use a rotating curriculum for the Taegeuk forms, and IMO it's been a big improvement for our classes over a more traditional approach. Of course, you have to be thoughtful when you develop the program, because there are forms with more basic techniques and others with more advanced techniques. It wouldn't be reasonable to teach Taegeuk 8 to white belt, for example. But Taegeuk 1 and 2 have the same techniques in them. And the same thing applies to other curriculum areas, like you need to know a side kick before you do a flying side kick, but a side kick and a roundhouse kick are the same difficulty. So as long as you think about what things actually build on each other and what things are kind of interchangeable, it can be a good approach.

Sure, you can juggle things a bit like that. But to my mind, that would also mean moving away from or at least altering the traditional belt system. In our system, a white belt (10th geup) is practicing Kicho Il Jang. The most basic of basic forms. A 9th geup will be learning Kicho Ee Jang and Palgwae Il Jang. If that 10th geup is doing Kicho 2 and Palgwae 1, then why haven't the been promoted?

I think if I were going to consider a system such as you describe, I would revamp the belt system. Our belts currently go White, Yellow, Yellow with a Green stripe, Green, Green with a Blue stripe, etc. If I were to teach, say the Yellow (9th geup) and Green stripe (8th geup) curriculum together, I'd eliminate the stripe and students would simply go White-Yellow-Green-Blue-Red.

Again, the difference between a for-profit school, which relies on testing fees (in part) to keep the lights on and a non-profit school would come into play.

 

[WaterGal]

Frankly, this statement baffles me. I mean, there are certainly plenty of people like @skribs who have been given KKW rank without being taught the KKW curriculum. But he knows that the forms he has been taught are not the KKW forms. And while it has never been explicitly stated, that I can recall, I believe his Master is well aware that his curriculum does not match that of the KKW. I've known any number of instructors who, likewise, taught something other than the KKW curriculum. I do not think I've ever met someone who was unaware that what they taught wasn't what the KKW wants taught. I just don't think there are very many teaching non-KKW forms without knowing that they are doing so.

That's fair, that would be a more extreme case. More common, I think, is when someone is teaching the Taegeuk forms, but not quite correctly. Either because of KKW's standards changing over the years, or because of a sort of game of telephone effect, with things getting passed down from one teacher to another with slight errors or just lack of attention to detail. But I think there are also some people who genuinely aren't plugged in with the greater TKD community and don't know what they don't know.

Sure, you can juggle things a bit like that. But to my mind, that would also mean moving away from or at least altering the traditional belt system. In our system, a white belt (10th geup) is practicing Kicho Il Jang. The most basic of basic forms. A 9th geup will be learning Kicho Ee Jang and Palgwae Il Jang. If that 10th geup is doing Kicho 2 and Palgwae 1, then why haven't the been promoted?

Yeah, in order to do that, you kind of have to move away from the idea of "the white belt curriculum", to i.e. "the beginner curriculum". Think of it kind of like, how, when you were in high school, there were certain classes you needed to take at some point in order to graduate high school, but there wasn't a "9th grade math class" or "9th grade science class". You might take Prealgebra, Algebra, or Geometry. Whichever one you took in 9th grade, you'd still move up to 10th grade if you passed. Similarly, if your student starts out working on Kicho 2, they could pass that and move up to the next belt and then learn Kicho 1 and pass that and move up again.