Red on certificate chops

[andyjeffries]

Hi guys,

I just wondered - if it's bad to write a name in red in asian cultures, why are chops (the stamps used on certificates) traditionally done in red?

But do not write a person’s name in red ink! It means that you have cut them out of your life or that they are dead. In ancient times the names of the dead were carved in red on tombstones and plaques. Nowadays, Chinese obituaries are traditionally written in red ink.
http://www.fastenseatbelts.eu/en/continent/1/34/Dont-write-a-persons-name-in-red

Seals on Wikipedia

 

[zDom]

Hi guys,

I just wondered - if it's bad to write a name in red in asian cultures, why are chops (the stamps used on certificates) traditionally done in red?

But do not write a person’s name in red ink! It means that you have cut them out of your life or that they are dead. In ancient times the names of the dead were carved in red on tombstones and plaques. Nowadays, Chinese obituaries are traditionally written in red ink.
http://www.fastenseatbelts.eu/en/continent/1/34/Dont-write-a-persons-name-in-red

Seals on Wikipedia

But then NAME isn't in red, is it? It is just the color of the paper with red around it.

 

[puunui]

But then NAME isn't in red, is it? It is just the color of the paper with red around it.

That picture is unusual. Usually the writing is in red, not the background.

 

[David43515]

I`ve seen both ways. Here in Japan your signature on a peice of paper means very little, it has almost no legal weight. Banking, insurance, real estate deals, everything is done with a seal. Because I`m a foreigner people assume I don`t have a seal, ( I do, they`re cheap) so I`m allowed to sign fairly often.....but they never want you to sign in red. I was also told when I was young that it was rude to write a letter in red ink. My sempais told me that no matter what you write, the person would assume you hated them. This was 20 + years ago.

 

[andyjeffries]

That picture is unusual. Usually the writing is in red, not the background.

The two styles - red text on white is known as Zhuwen or yang-style, white on red is known as Baiwen or yin-style in Chinese.

Here is a yang-style one:

However, no one's answered how it can be good luck to have your seal in yang-style in the lucky red colour but not write your name in red...

Anyone know?

 

[puunui]

However, no one's answered how it can be good luck to have your seal in yang-style in the lucky red colour but not write your name in red...Anyone know?

I will try and ask about it. I do know that the seal system came from China, that in China, red is considered a good luck color. Perhaps it is only in Japan and Korea that writing in red is bad luck. I know that the Japanese would write people's names who were to be executed in red and post the list on the town bulletin board or whatever. I thought that was why you aren't supposed to write someone's name in red.

I was on this tour to Korea last year or the year before, and this one instructor was getting monogrammed belts made at the Sang Moo Sa store. He chose the writing in red letters, so I mentioned that you might wish to reconsider that because it is bad luck to have your name written in red, which the lady at Sang Moo Sa agreed with. The instructor in question stated that he has been training in Taekwondo for 20 something years, that he has always done it this way, that he likes the red lettering and that he will continue to write his name in red, jutting his chin at me, and looking at me in disdain that I would have the nerve to tell him to change.

I responded by saying, ok, do what ever you want. If he wants to drink from the finger bowl, then I guess it's ok, right?

 

[puunui]

Here in Japan your signature on a peice of paper means very little, it has almost no legal weight. Banking, insurance, real estate deals, everything is done with a seal.

My instructor used to use his red seals on the Kukkiwon applications. So when I started processing Kukkiwon poom and dan recommendations, I also started stamping them with my red seals, one square one on the school name section and a round one on the recommending instructor's name section on the form.

 

[David43515]

My instructor used to use his red seals on the Kukkiwon applications. So when I started processing Kukkiwon poom and dan recommendations, I also started stamping them with my red seals, one square one on the school name section and a round one on the recommending instructor's name section on the form.

That seems to be the norm. Every bank and post office in Japan has several little jars of thick red paste for you to use when you put your seal on something. And when you buy a seal it comes with a small red inkpad in the carrying case. The self-inking ones are always red too.

 

[andyjeffries]

I will try and ask about it.

Many thanks, I look forward to hearing if you get any answers.

The instructor in question stated that he has been training in Taekwondo for 20 something years, that he has always done it this way, that he likes the red lettering and that he will continue to write his name in red, jutting his chin at me, and looking at me in disdain that I would have the nerve to tell him to change.

I responded by saying, ok, do what ever you want. If he wants to drink from the finger bowl, then I guess it's ok, right?

Indeed some people don't like learning.

Quite a few times I've been told off by my english friends while having a chinese meal for picking up my bowl - until having staff correct them that what I'm doing is perfectly normal etiquette for chinese eating.

I have to remember to not do it when eating Korean or Japanese though (I mostly eat Chinese out of the three and my Grandmaster is Chinese so when I have chopsticks in hand I automatically revert to Chinese etiquette). Again though, the different etiquettes and switching between them is something to learn

 

[andyjeffries]

My instructor used to use his red seals on the Kukkiwon applications. So when I started processing Kukkiwon poom and dan recommendations, I also started stamping them with my red seals, one square one on the school name section and a round one on the recommending instructor's name section on the form.

It's a shame that it's all done online now then...

 

[puunui]

It's a shame that it's all done online now then...

I don't like doing it online for some reason.

 

[Rumy73]

I`ve seen both ways. Here in Japan your signature on a peice of paper means very little, it has almost no legal weight. Banking, insurance, real estate deals, everything is done with a seal. Because I`m a foreigner people assume I don`t have a seal, ( I do, they`re cheap) so I`m allowed to sign fairly often.....but they never want you to sign in red. I was also told when I was young that it was rude to write a letter in red ink. My sempais told me that no matter what you write, the person would assume you hated them. This was 20 + years ago.

Red ink connotes death. Writing a person's name in red ink, at least in Korea, sends the message the person is going to die. It stems from Buddhist traditions wear monks would write the name of a person in red ink on the anniversary of his or her death.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

Quite a few times I've been told off by my english friends while having a chinese meal for picking up my bowl - until having staff correct them that what I'm doing is perfectly normal etiquette for chinese eating.

I have to remember to not do it when eating Korean or Japanese though (I mostly eat Chinese out of the three and my Grandmaster is Chinese so when I have chopsticks in hand I automatically revert to Chinese etiquette). Again though, the different etiquettes and switching between them is something to learn

My wife still doesn't like me putting my chopsticks across the rice or soup bowl if I want to use my right hand for something else momentarily. In Korea that indicates you are finished eating. I learned if from my Chinese interpreters in Vietnam.

In Korea you don't normally pick up rice with chopsticks, she still thinks I am crazy for not using my spoon. BTW, anyone pay attention to the difference in the way the Japanese and Koreans hold chopsticks?

In Korea, one does not pick up the rice bowl to eat from. But picking up the soup bowl is OK. It isn't done as much as it used to be, but I was taught to put a little of my water or barly tea in my rice bowl when I had finished eating. Of course, after eating was the only proper time to drink water or tea. Makulee or soju is a different matter of course.

Speaking of alcohol, traditionally, younger people would always turn their back on elders when drinking alcohol. To do otherwise was a great faux pau and an insult to the elders.

My children, and now my grandchildren, were taught to bow, first to my mother-in-law (RIP), and now me and my wife on New Year's Day. Of course, they then get money. Its just a fun little tradition to remember their heritage from their Korean side.

I will ask my wife about red and signature chops. She may or may not know. I don't think she ever had or used one before she came to the USA.

 

[chrispillertkd]

In Korea you don't normally pick up rice with chopsticks, she still thinks I am crazy for not using my spoon. BTW, anyone pay attention to the difference in the way the Japanese and Koreans hold chopsticks?

I remembering first learning that Koreans ate rice with a spoon some years ago and thought that it wasn't such a bad idea after having eaten rice with chop sticks myself so often in restaurants. I will say the whole lifting the bowl thing like the Chinese do does help, however.

I've not noticed the difference between Japanese and Korean styles of eating with chop sticks. Mind sharing what they are?

Speaking of alcohol, traditionally, younger people would always turn their back on elders when drinking alcohol. To do otherwise was a great faux pau and an insult to the elders.

We do this with my instructors. It's always interesting going to dinners with people and seeing who does this and who doesn't.

I will ask my wife about red and signature chops. She may or may not know. I don't think she ever had or used one before she came to the USA.

Interesting. I've seen them on lots of martial arts type certificates for years, both the names of organizations and of individuals. Never really thought about it even though I knew the whole writing name in red thing is considered unlucky. Maybe it has something to do with a chop not really being "written," but I'd be interested in hearing if she has any insight on the issue.

Pax,

Chris

 

[andyjeffries]

I will ask my wife about red and signature chops. She may or may not know. I don't think she ever had or used one before she came to the USA.

Really? I've read a lot about chops (dojang in Korean, yes the same as our training halls) and it seems they are a very common part of life in Korea. They are used on official goverment paperwork (applications for things, etc), banking documents, etc.

http://www.buhaykorea.com/2008/09/01/dojang-korean-chop/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_(Chinese)#Korean_usage
http://chersurvivingkorea.blogspot.com/p/info-104-do-jang-getting-your-sealstamp.html

The wikipedia article says "Thus most Koreans have more than two seals.".

I've also read recently (in a book on Korean culture) that often it was the males in the family that have the seals and that in the past women might even need to get their young son (8 year old etc) to stamp a document to buy a car. This has apparently changed in recent years, but was common in the past that women needed a male's approval for things, even if they were their children.

That might explain why your wife hadn't used them (maybe she came from a more rural part of Korea and didn't get involved in these things). I'm guessing though, but it seems weird that she'd never used one before coming to the US when so many articles online say about how common they are in Korea.

While I was reading about seals I found this post that explains the stamps on the ITF Taekwondo certificates (which matches information I received from Puunui on how the stamps are used):

http://www.vip.tkdsource.com/forum/general-discussion-20/meaning-of-the-seals-on-the-certificates/

 

[oftheherd1]

I remembering first learning that Koreans ate rice with a spoon some years ago and thought that it wasn't such a bad idea after having eaten rice with chop sticks myself so often in restaurants. I will say the whole lifting the bowl thing like the Chinese do does help, however.

I've not noticed the difference between Japanese and Korean styles of eating with chop sticks. Mind sharing what they are?



We do this with my instructors. It's always interesting going to dinners with people and seeing who does this and who doesn't.



Interesting. I've seen them on lots of martial arts type certificates for years, both the names of organizations and of individuals. Never really thought about it even though I knew the whole writing name in red thing is considered unlucky. Maybe it has something to do with a chop not really being "written," but I'd be interested in hearing if she has any insight on the issue.

Pax,

Chris

Koreans tend to hold their chopsticks with the lower stick resting on their ring finger. Japanese, by holding the lower stick on the middle finger. I learned to use chopsticks on Okinawa, perhaps on the main islands they don't do it that way. But the Korean way seems true all over Korea.

 

[oftheherd1]

Really? I've read a lot about chops (dojang in Korean, yes the same as our training halls) and it seems they are a very common part of life in Korea. They are used on official goverment paperwork (applications for things, etc), banking documents, etc.

http://www.buhaykorea.com/2008/09/01/dojang-korean-chop/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_(Chinese)#Korean_usage
http://chersurvivingkorea.blogspot.com/p/info-104-do-jang-getting-your-sealstamp.html

The wikipedia article says "Thus most Koreans have more than two seals.".

I've also read recently (in a book on Korean culture) that often it was the males in the family that have the seals and that in the past women might even need to get their young son (8 year old etc) to stamp a document to buy a car. This has apparently changed in recent years, but was common in the past that women needed a male's approval for things, even if they were their children.

That might explain why your wife hadn't used them (maybe she came from a more rural part of Korea and didn't get involved in these things). I'm guessing though, but it seems weird that she'd never used one before coming to the US when so many articles online say about how common they are in Korea.

While I was reading about seals I found this post that explains the stamps on the ITF Taekwondo certificates (which matches information I received from Puunui on how the stamps are used):

http://www.vip.tkdsource.com/forum/general-discussion-20/meaning-of-the-seals-on-the-certificates/

My wife was only about 18 years old when she came to the USA. I think her father probably signed (chopped) any Korean paperwork she needed. I should have clarified that perhaps.

I asked her about it. She wasn't too sure, but thought the only time she had seen black chops was on things like paintings. Red was always used otherwise. Now as pointed out above, I think that is indeed a red ink used for the chop, but the characters in red ink only. Again, as mentioned above, peole would carry a pad of red ink. I have also seen fingerprints used, and again, a red ink was used.

 

[puunui]

Many thanks, I look forward to hearing if you get any answers.

I keep forgetting to ask. But one thing to point out is that in general on the certificates at least is that a person's name is not on those seals. Usually it is the organization name and the person's title, but not their name. However, I do remember sealing newer seals with people's name on it on certificates.

 

[puunui]

The wikipedia article says "Thus most Koreans have more than two seals.".

I have a shoebox filled with those things, along with the ink things, as well as ink pads that I use now. I don't like using the traditional ink because it tends to smear if you don't let it dry. So I just use a regular ink pad for rubber stamps instead.

In Korea, the seals serve in place of your signature. The personal ones are smaller than the ones we normally see, and are used for such things as endorsing checks.