RBSD influencing TMAs?

[geezer]

I just finished wading through some eight or so pages of discussion, and then argument, then finally insult, on the thread "RBSD and TMAs: which one prepares you better...". But, before the thread deteriorated, there was a lively and sometimes enlightening debate. It also occurred to me that, on the positive side, many of the ideas coming out of RBSD and similar movements have been filtering into and revitalizing some TMAs. I recently took a seminar offered by a prominent FMA practitioner who incorporated a lot of RBSD into his teaching...seamlessly and effectively. Of course the FMAs are a bit like that anyway. My question is, "Have any of you seen RSBD ideas being integrated into your TMA and if so, has it been helpful?"

 

[Brian S]

No, quite the other way around. They use what is quickly learned and only requires gross motor skills. They leave out some good stuff and all the formality (art), tht's all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My question is, "Have any of you seen RSBD ideas being integrated into your TMA and if so, has it been helpful?"

Actually no, nothing wrong if it does, but I have not seen it in the TMA I do. However the RSBD (or at least I think it was - Police/Military Sanda) that I did train is heavily influenced by TCMA

 

[kidswarrior]

For me, it depends on what you mean by *reality*.

Kung Fu San Soo, I think probably like police/military Sanda, is pretty hardcore. In fact, there are many elements I wouldn't/don't teach to teens, my primary student pool. I tell them if they find themselves on the verge of shipping out to Iraq or Afghanistan, then I'll freely teach them all I know privately. Otherwise, I mix it in with a couple other arts that are more judicial-system friendly.

Another way to say it: I haven't seen anything in the journals or on Youtube under the RBSD heading that I didn't see first in the KFSS--or even Hapkido or Kempo--studio. But turn it the other way around, and I've seen plenty.

 

[chinto]

what I study if any thing has influenced RBSD but I have not seen any thing ever in any of the RBSD systems that was not already in the systems I am familiar with from Okinawa when taught properly don not teach. I know that is also true of many CMA and traditional Japanese Jujitsu systems.

 

[geezer]

No, quite the other way around. They use what is quickly learned and only requires gross motor skills. They leave out some good stuff and all the formality (art), tht's all.

Well, to be honest I don't know much about RBSD, but the Filipino Martial Arts I've been involved with have traditionally been light on formality and heavily based on learning to use what works in a hurry. Unlike the CMAs I've also been involved with, the FMA training began day-one with weapons, simple hardcore techniques, and stressing offense with attitude as your best defense. Ferocious mindset, powerful attacks and a "KISS" strategy were at the core of what was taught. The more "artful" side of the style emerged later, after the combat core was well ingrained. We were told that in the Philippines, this was an art that was taught for immediate use to save your butt, not as something that would take years before it could be effective. Then the refined stuff comes along takes you up to a higher level.

I guess with that as my "tradition", RBSD and the like don't seem so non-traditional.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

what I study if any thing has influenced RBSD but I have not seen any thing ever in any of the RBSD systems that was not already in the systems I am familiar with from Okinawa when taught properly don not teach. I know that is also true of many CMA and traditional Japanese Jujitsu systems.

I would agree with this.

Daniel

 

[punisher73]

Here is a quote from me on another thread that dealt with RSBD vs. TMA

RBSD is based on "traditional" karate and other traditional arts, Fairbairn, Applegate and others took their MA training and took out a few techniques that were very easy to learn and quick to teach and used those to give crash course lessons to the WW2 military guys. RBSD seems to forget that karate has all the same tools and more, it all comes down to how you are training those tools.

I would agree that if you are using a TMA for self-defense and not just for self-improvement, you need to cover the mental/emotional aspects of preconflict and de-escalation etc. But, there are also some RBSD's that only focus on the physical/combat side as well. So it again boils down to your training methods.

I do think that the popularity of RBSD has caused many TMA's to refocus on what their art was designed for in the first place.

 

[geezer]

I do think that the popularity of RBSD has caused many TMA's to refocus on what their art was designed for in the first place.

I guess that's what I'm thinking. I mean, TMAs evolved from combat arts suited to the reality of their times. And the important things don't really change much. Weapons might, but human nature and criminal human nature remains pretty much a constant. Perhaps, over time, in a peaceful context, the two approaches have diverged. Perhaps it is a good thing to see them integrated again.

 

[qwksilver61]

I am inclined to agree....what use is a martial art that does not teach self defense...I have personally witnessed many schools where the student was/could be Ill prepared for a life or death situation....real self defense right off the bat (well, a good grounding helps too)...whether the student was novice or advanced.Ferocity is definitely a plus in any situation where there is no way out...it beats no response at all.."he who hesitates loses" two cents....if this post appears in the wrong thread...it is probably because it is....

 

[geezer]

I am inclined to agree....Ferocity is definitely a plus in any situation where there is no way out...it beats no response at all.."he who hesitates loses"...quote]

Qwksilver, this is as true of our Wing Chun/Tsun/Tzun systems as of any other style. You can spend forever refining your Chi-sau chess game without developing the simple, effective combat skills you'd need to survive a real attack. Or you could learn both aspects and if attacked go totally "Emin" on the bugger...if you catch my drift. Finesse is a fine thing, but in the end, it's who's left standing that matters.

 

[frank raud]

Here is a quote from me on another thread that dealt with RSBD vs. TMA
Fairbairn, Applegate and others took their MA training and took out a few techniques that were very easy to learn and quick to teach and used those to give crash course lessons to the WW2 military guys.





I do think that the popularity of RBSD has caused many TMA's to refocus on what their art was designed for in the first place.

Minor point. Applegate did not have a martial arts background. When Donovan sent him to learn everything there was to know about unarmed combat, he went to Fairbairn and Sykes. Fairbairn definitely had a MA background, not enough is known about Sykes.

 

[punisher73]

Minor point. Applegate did not have a martial arts background. When Donovan sent him to learn everything there was to know about unarmed combat, he went to Fairbairn and Sykes. Fairbairn definitely had a MA background, not enough is known about Sykes.

I don't see how that is a minor point when Fairbairn was pretty much the "founder" of WW2 combatives. The approach that RBSD uses is based on this fact of taking a few core techniques from TMA and then using them in the worst case scenarios. The moves mainly rely on gross motor skills and are easy to learn and apply.

Some of the RBSD's I have looked at don't really have a good toolbox for all levels of force. Some don't have tools for the drunk relative/friend that you don't really want to hurt, they only know how to do maximum damage in minimum time.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Good movement is simply good movement. Whether found in RBSD or TMA or MMA, etc. A label is just that and really nothing more.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I think it all depends on the way you train...you can train for "real combat situations" as well as "defense combat situations". The difference between the 2 is that in the "real" situation, you are going to have to hurt, maim, or kill your opponent...wartime combat. In "defense" situations, you are only trying to get out of the fight....you are not trying to hurt anyone.

TMA's can offer both of these types of training. I'm not sure about RBSD's, as I've never attended a real school for RBSD, but from what I can tell, they center everything around getting the job done as quickly and effectively as possible. The problem with that is that if you are trying to get out of a situation and have to use force, the quickest and easiest way may be the most violent way, in which your opponent may be harmed unnecessarily.

I think it would be more effective to teach both scenerio's, how to recognize which scenerio you're involved in, and how to deal with them, respectively. Some TMA's do that, others do not, so it's not fair to say that ALL TMA's deal with these situations...but by the same token, I'm not very well versed in any RBSD's, so this is just my humble opinion on the matter.

 

[MJS]

I just finished wading through some eight or so pages of discussion, and then argument, then finally insult, on the thread "RBSD and TMAs: which one prepares you better...". But, before the thread deteriorated, there was a lively and sometimes enlightening debate. It also occurred to me that, on the positive side, many of the ideas coming out of RBSD and similar movements have been filtering into and revitalizing some TMAs. I recently took a seminar offered by a prominent FMA practitioner who incorporated a lot of RBSD into his teaching...seamlessly and effectively. Of course the FMAs are a bit like that anyway. My question is, "Have any of you seen RSBD ideas being integrated into your TMA and if so, has it been helpful?"

I haven't derived from the Kenpo system that I study, but I have added in some RBSD methods to my own training. Of course, if we look at the RBSD systems today, we should see alot of what we see in TMAs. The main difference is in the application. For example...some TMAs may practice punches and kicks from a particular stance, in a static position, while the RBSD stylist adds movement.

 

[Imua Kuntao]

Stances are transitions from one movement to another, shifting hips and wieght, throwing others or takedowns.

 

[shihansmurf]

Good movement is simply good movement. Whether found in RBSD or TMA or MMA, etc. A label is just that and really nothing more.

and all the people said AMEN!

This is the heart of the matter, a fighter that has internalized their system to the point that they can perform the techniques well while under stress is going to be successfull, no matter the particular style of martial art.A good, solid front kick is a good solid front kick. As far as I know, that technique is extant in MMA, Krav Maga, and Shotokan. Same basic movement.

I would say that, in response to the OP's question, I have noticed a lot of TMA schools are offering a "street self-defense" class in addition to their normal classes. Other schools are adding an extra RBSD class to their school. These observations are not universal, just what I have seen in a few states over the years. It leads to the obvious question of what does the RBDS teaching model offer that TMA's don't. Is it just perception? Is there a significant number of holes that need patched in TMA? If those holes are there, can the performance of the typical student of TMAs be improved without adding another system to what they are training in?

I am of the opinion that a student that trains hard in a TMA, sparrs with contact, and developes good underlying attributes(speed, strength, agility, and so forth) should be able to more than adequately defend themselves without the need to learn the newest commando killing secrets.

Just my view
Mark

 

[MJS]

Stances are transitions from one movement to another, shifting hips and wieght, throwing others or takedowns.

True, and being fluid vs. being stiff and robot like, is more important, IMHO, and will make your technique, whatever it may be, much more effective.