Questions on Catch wrestling

[RMACKD]

I have a few questions for the catch practicioners out there.
1.I read on Tony's site that Catch has standup striking. Is this based off of old school boxing? Can I have a brief description of what it consists of?
2.Is there any striking in the clinch or on the ground in catch?
3.On the videos I have seen I Tony working from the guard but in the old books I have and in Scientific Wrestling Volume 1 I see no use of the guard and it says that you can lose a match by being on your back? Anyone clear this up?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Marvin]

I think the guard may be a new addition to Catch wrestling. All the information I've seen has not shown any guard work.

 

[arnisador]

Does catch wrestling have a sport wide where you win by a pin like in collegiate wrestling? If so, the guard would be an awful position to be in.

I guess I don't know much about catch as a competitive sport.

 

[Fight with attitude]

The funny thing about catch is that rules change for the enjoyment of the crowd, just like how today the NHL makes new rules to draw new people.

Catch wrestling was a spectator sport first and for most in the 1800's, therefore it was like any other sport of today where the enterainment was more focused on then the sport itself. As a result the rules had to change, in some area's pin falls where counted and the guard would have been a bad position to be in and some area's would have no pin fall's so the guard would then be a neutral position.

One other thing to remember is that at this time the world didn't have TV or the internet so it wasn't as homogeneous, as a result some people in one town loved only the submisson's of catch where as a town 200 miles from there would get more enjoyment out of pin falls as well. As a result of this catch doesn't have one set of defined rules.

 

[Marvin]

Fight is right on the money. Just like sports entertainment now, money is king. We also must remeber that carnivals may be a little shady worked fights were common, refs were biased etc. do what it take to sell tickets. These varying rules are one of the things that led it to evolve into what we call pro. wrestlng.
Check out a pretty good documentary " the unreal story of professional wrestling" I saw it on the history channel a few years ago.
Marvin

 

[arnisador]

OK, thanks for the info.!

 

[Old Tiger]

There is a new documentary available from Budovideos, "Catch, the Hold Not Taken"

 

[James Kovacich]

What I like about "catch" is that you'll learn techniques that are illegal in other systems like BJJ, hence in a BJJ class your not likely to learn them, but more importantly your not likely to learn to "defend against" them.

Like Sombo, there are many techniques that "crossover" into street applications that are not as "generic" as the techniques we see in the more popular systems that "so many" today are studying.

 

[arnisador]

What's an example of a technique legal in Catch but not in BJJ?

 

[Andrew Green]

finger locks, gouging, fish hooking, etc. Neck cranks and a lot of leg locks are often not allowed in lower level BJJ.

As the carni's where doing challenge matches against anyone the rules where very "open" and putting them in place would have likely meant nothing as the challengers where out to prove something and had money on the line.

So... "No holds barred" was born, not the safest way to make a living...

 

[Nanalo74]

And of course catch gave birth to what we now know as pro wrestling because in order to make more money, shady promoters began to fix the matches. Thus the "work" was born. A "work" is a match where both guys are in on it and the outcome is known by both.

My pro wrestling coach, Johnny Rodz, would rarely teach any of the techniques, but I saw him get in the ring with some of the boys. Once in a while they would try to get strong with him and he'd pull some catch moves out of his bag. If you paid attention, you'd learn how to protect yourself if anybody ever tried to go over on you (take advantage of you).

I used to try him just so he would shoot on me and I'd learn something new every time.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[James Kovacich]

BJJ is regulated to echniques that fit within BJJ the sport. Even Vale Tudo events won't allow a lot of techniques and for the street with the strong possiblity of some kind of grappling in a real fight, catch techniques are great for "absorbing."

I particularly like the approach to hooking, to me seems sombo like. Tie someone into a "pretzel and tweak."

But this based of what I've seen in the media but Tony Cecchine (sp) does have the hooking tapes along with the rest of catch as he learned it.

 

[Shogun]

There is no pinning in Catch wrestling, but a Hooker never wants to be on his back. not that he won't end up there, its just its not the place to be if you really want to crank on someone. also, Catch wrestling contains every type of leglock imaginable (thats where I learned mine) so putting someone in your guard (unless you have excellent BJJ) is a no-no, as you will be locked. there is striking taught, a little more than in BJJ, but not a lot. Western Boxing progressed right alongside Catch so they are often taught together, much as Bjj and Muay Thai are for today's MMA. Cechinne's stuff will be a little different than the older stuff because of the BJJ and MMA influence over the past 10 years or so. take a look at an older Pro wrestler's stuff and you'll see some pure Catch.

 

[arnisador]

Not on the back? Would a catcher wrestler turn to his stomach instead (a big non-no in BJJ)?

 

[Andrew Green]

Under some of the rules at different times the hooker would loose if pinned on their back by the challenger, so being in Guard often meant lossing the match for them. Usually didn't go the other way though, they had to get the sub to win, but lost if submitted, pinned or even if the time just ran out.

This would lead to a fast, agressive top game with very little holding position and getting that "constant action" idea that is still there, even in shootfighting.

 

[arnisador]

I get it! But, would it be fair to say that for the bottom person, bad habits are being trained as far as an actual fight goes?

 

[Andrew Green]

Catch wasn't really about "real" fights, it was about challenge matches and making money.

Anytime you are on the bottom you are loosing though IMO, you can win from the bottom, which is something Catch also stresses, and guys have been winning from the bottom in MMA since UFC 1.

Catch does not stress positions in the same way as BJJ, they stress control, and submissions from any position. There is the idea that even if you are in a inferior position you can still be in control, and can still achieve a submission.

And the submission is the goal, not pins, or sweeps, just that submission because nothing but a submission wins, and if you don't get one you loose.

 

[Shogun]

Catch may also appear to be one big scramble, as the wrestlers are constantly seeking a submission. so a lot of position reversing.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I've seen Tony Cecchine's "Lost Art of Hooking" tapes. Good stuff all the way.

Kind of reminds me of how my instructor moves while on the ground.:ultracool

 

[green meanie]

Not on the back? Would a catcher wrestler turn to his stomach instead (a big non-no in BJJ)?

and

I get it! But, would it be fair to say that for the bottom person, bad habits are being trained as far as an actual fight goes?

I wouldn't say that. I think there's something positive to be had from learning some of the good escapes wrestlers use to get off the bottom from the rear mount position. I think we've started to see that deciding to belly down, although risky, doesn't automatically spell doom for the bottom man. I seen a few show that with some good hand control and a little common sense they could come out of there just fine.