Question about Wing Chun Beginner Lesson

[James Smith]

Hello again. I haven't been to a class yet so you guys are probably tired of me asking questions. There's only one school near me but I found a 6 part video of someone teaching a beginner Wing Chun class and wondered your opinions on the way the class was taught (EDIT: the video I posted was not of the school near me but of a school that I really liked the beginner/trial lesson as an example). I thought the way everything was explained was awesome and it made me want to sign up for that teacher's class. I just was hoping some people will watch the first part of the video and let and let me know if I should expect a beginner/trial lesson at most schools to go this way:

Part 1:

I like the way this class was taught. He explained the basics. Didn't overwhelm with a lot of terminology, demonstrating the each move that he was showing without saying the actual name for the move and using a realistic situation throughout the examples to keep me interested. I enjoyed how he treated the class really well like he was your friend instead of some superior drill instructor-type. He got a few observers to take part in the demo without trying to be really fancy. He gave a timeline of what it would take to learn those basics and had a student with a few months experience briefly help him out to show that she learned those basics in that amount of time.

Where I'm trying to go with this is that when I visit the school in my area (I only have one choice within an hour's drive each way) I am expecting a similar experience. Is it unrealistic to expect an introductory class similar to the video? Do you guys consider that person to be a bad teacher since he wasn't stern and didn't explain terminology for each move that he used?

Thanks for responding if you watched the one part of the video or even the other five parts too

 

[Xue Sheng]

There are many others, likely all in the Wing Chun section that are more qualified than I to answer your question but since I am the eternal Wing Chun Beginner (I only train Siu Lim Tao and it has been that way for years) I am not the best judge of the video but all I can say is my sifu begins with Siu Lum Tao. Another teacher I trained with briefly started with drills and then went to Siu Lum Tao. Both threw in terminology when they where teaching you the form. I think this is a good idea but it was rather difficult for me since the terminology was ion Cantonese and I speak English and am learning Mandarin

Both it was just kind of show up to class and start there was really no beginner class. My first sifu would take a beginner out in the hall for the very first class and go over stances and a few basics but that was about the only thing one could call a beginner class.
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[yak sao]

I noticed he had what looked like a hot dog stand in behind him.
Good idea. I may implement this into my classes

 

[James Smith]

I noticed he had what looked like a hot dog stand in behind him.
Good idea. I may implement this into my classes

Yeah I saw the grill and hot dog stand in the background.. sounds like a good after class snack.

 

[profesormental]

Hot dogs are a secret Wing Chun power accelerator.

This is a demo. Explains some stuff and gives perspective of what is going to be taught.

I don't know about your experience in the place you're going. It might happen or not. Most probably you'll begin with basics and Sil Lum Tao.

 

[zepedawingchun]

No two Wing Chun Sifu's are alike, every Sifu is different, from beginning to advanced, what they teach and how they teach it, everything. So you can't expect to see what was on the video to be taught like that at another academy. It was a very good demonstration but for me, way too much information for a first class. I thought it was too overwhelming. Too much talking and not enough letting the students do. That is how we learn, through doing. Constant repetition both in words and actions. I guarantee, most people listening will forget 95 percent of what was said (picking out and only remembering 2 or 3 key pieces), and will have to hear it and see it many, many times to remember it and apply it.

Great presentation but less talk, more action.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Well said, a good experienced opinion by zep

 

[zepedawingchun]

No two Wing Chun Sifu's are alike, every Sifu is different, from beginning to advanced, what they teach and how they teach it, everything. So you can't expect to see what was on the video to be taught like that at another academy. It was a very good demonstration but for me, way too much information for a first class. I thought it was too overwhelming. Too much talking and not enough letting the students do. That is how we learn, through doing. Constant repetition both in words and actions. I guarantee, most people listening will forget 95 percent of what was said (picking out and only remembering 2 or 3 key pieces), and will have to hear it and see it many, many times to remember it and apply it.

Great presentation but less talk, more action.

After my last response, I got to thinking. The gentleman in the Youtube video has a very good presentation. It's almost like he's trying to convince the new students (even though that is supposed to be their first lesson) that this art is what they need to do. But sometimes people have to see it to believe it. And I don't mean in a presentation sort of way, but hand to hand to them (with the new student).

I like to do some simple trapping with someone new. They are more impressed when they see you do it to them, because, let's face it, most people are not believers until you do something to them that they can't do or stop you from doing. When they see you do something with one of your present student's, there is a bit of doubt thinking it's already set up. And of course, if it's set up, you're going to do everything you want to do and look good at it.

But when you do some trapping with them, and trap them several different ways, and not hurt them, and make it look easy or effortless, now that impresses them. They suddenly want to be able to do what you just did to them to other people. And that get's the ball rolling and the fire burning inside of them. They will always remember that.

 

[James Smith]

Thanks for the feedback! You're right that not everyone will probably remember what they saw but I think it was almost like trying to build interest rather than teach them a whole lot.

I actually liked the demonstration using one of the current students. There's a youtube vid of my would-be Sifu where he's showing the Advanced class a new move and explaining how the drill should go. Rather than working with them and making them feel like they are making progress, he asks someone to participate in the drill. In this Sifu's drill he basically says do the drill how he explained while he tries to break the student's move (the one he is explaining for the first time) and shows off and repeatedly strikes the student with slaps to the face. Obviously the Sifu should be able to strike them, especially if they are first learning the move so I take it as demoralizing the students or putting himself on a platform by constantly slapping the guy in the face instead of holding back before making contact. Here's the vid to show what I'm referring to:

Let me know if your Sifu, or you as a Sifu, would slap your students in the face while demoing a move instead of holding back before making contact. I think the guy is a bully but that's from someone who has zero experience in a class.

 

[yak sao]

Thanks for the feedback! You're right that not everyone will probably remember what they saw but I think it was almost like trying to build interest rather than teach them a whole lot.

I actually liked the demonstration using one of the current students. There's a youtube vid of my would-be Sifu where he's showing the Advanced class a new move and explaining how the drill should go. Rather than working with them and making them feel like they are making progress, he asks someone to participate in the drill. In this Sifu's drill he basically says do the drill how he explained while he tries to break the student's move (the one he is explaining for the first time) and shows off and repeatedly strikes the student with slaps to the face. Obviously the Sifu should be able to strike them, especially if they are first learning the move so I take it as demoralizing the students or putting himself on a platform by constantly slapping the guy in the face instead of holding back before making contact. Here's the vid to show what I'm referring to:

Let me know if your Sifu, or you as a Sifu, would slap your students in the face while demoing a move instead of holding back before making contact. I think the guy is a bully but that's from someone who has zero experience in a class.

The contact was fine....he didn't seem to be ***** slapping him by any means.
I train my group to make contact when hitting the face....not hard obviously, but I don't want them to fall into a bad habit of pulling their punches. Then when they get into a serious altercation, they are used to 1) dishing it out.....simply adjusting the degree of contact , and 2) are not going to freak out when someone actually makes contact with their face

 

[Nabakatsu]

I've been at wing tzun for about 2.5 years now? (did time fly by that fast)
Seems to be an absolutely fine level of contact in my humble opinion.
It's important to be able to at least deal with that level, let alone the level of contact you'll be in, in a real altercation. If it pisses you off, all the better (nothing like a real challenge eh?) no room for emotionality during a fight or training. I often encourage lower same and higher level students to knock me back and step through me, while following up with at least chain palms to the chest, so they are used to moving back mass.
I enjoy sparring, and like to deal with real force so I know where I stand. I am a more gung ho than most to take a healthy beating.. but this type of contact is quite common in Wing Chun.

 

[James Smith]

Thanks for the input. I guess I was over reacting a bit in that case if it is normal.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . . Let me know if your Sifu, or you as a Sifu, would slap your students in the face while demoing a move instead of holding back before making contact. I think the guy is a bully but that's from someone who has zero experience in a class.

Without looking at the video, I'll have to say it is never a good idea to hit or strike a student in the face, especially beginner or intermediate students. It does more damage than good to do that at that level.

Once a student becomes an advanced student (or someone in your 'Inner Circle') then you can, but must use caution. You have to be careful of a student's self esteem, it's never good to embarrass them in front of other junior or senior students or instructors.

Now that's not to say they don't learn to receive strikes, hits and the like. But there is a time and a place to hit your student's. But never in the face (unprotected) or in front of others.

Sparring with head gear, gloves, and protective equipment is a little bit different. And it should only be done when they are ready.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Thanks for the feedback! You're right that not everyone will probably remember what they saw but I think it was almost like trying to build interest rather than teach them a whole lot.

I actually liked the demonstration using one of the current students. There's a youtube vid of my would-be Sifu where he's showing the Advanced class a new move and explaining how the drill should go. Rather than working with them and making them feel like they are making progress, he asks someone to participate in the drill. In this Sifu's drill he basically says do the drill how he explained while he tries to break the student's move (the one he is explaining for the first time) and shows off and repeatedly strikes the student with slaps to the face. Obviously the Sifu should be able to strike them, especially if they are first learning the move so I take it as demoralizing the students or putting himself on a platform by constantly slapping the guy in the face instead of holding back before making contact. Here's the vid to show what I'm referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxn5VK4WaB8

I watched the video and have to say, this drill is only about 50 perent correct in it's usage and will not work in real time. it works if a person does not respond to any of your inputs. When the instructor opens the line with his Quan Sau (low bong and tan), the student involved is being passive in his response. In other words, Sifu is moving but the student is not.

If you'll go back and watch, the instructor moves, opens the line (center, central, motherline, whatever you call it), and then the student freezes. The student should immediately go to a fook sau position (on the instructor's tan sau), but instead just leaves his hand palm up, touching the instructor's wrist and nothing more. Any decent Wing Chun practitioner knows to cover their position with one of the major hand positions of chi sau (bong, tan, or in this case fook). Plus the student's wu sau (on the instructor's low bong sau) is also passive, not reading or projecting a little bit of energy forward to actually check the bong sau. What the instructor is demonstrating will only work with a person letting them do the drill, a cooperative partner not giving resistance.

The real test of the drill is to see if the instructor can do the strike with an un-cooperative partner.

 

[Nabakatsu]

That's a good point zep, the drill seemed a lil silly, if they were just learning the basic movements and getting an explanation, it can be understandable as to some of their passivity. Still, getting in to fook sau right away is a reflex that should always happen... even a low level student like me, admittedly I practice a crap ton.. but I Digress..
I was striked relatively lightly in the face, at an early level, and at first it shook me a bit, it was a tiny bit embarrassing, but I Feel like it was a good thing too, it gave me a little confidence, a little pride as much as I don't want to admit it
I'm a weirdo in this respect, Sifu doesn't touch lower level students typically though, unless they have shown themselves to be REALLY interested in the application side of things, and some level of realism seems to be needed to transfer such knowledge. Anyways just the .02 cents of a newb. Cheers

 

[James Smith]

Zepeda & Nabakatsu,

I appreciate feedback! Is it possible for you both to watch some of the other videos by that same user? If you are saying the drill is only half right I want to get your opinions on some of the others. It wouldn't make sense to learn WC if what I would be taught isn't correct.

It isn't like I have much choice on where to go. I found out there is one more school by me (a total of two, including the one shown in that video) but that school is run by a student of that instructor that you saw in the videos so it isn't like I would be learning any differently if I chose the other school. I figure if I'm gonna pay to take classes, I'm guessing around $60/month, then I should be paying to be able to learn correctly or what's the point.

 

[Nabakatsu]

I'm too much of a novice to be qualified to do such a thing, I can see gaps here and there, but maybe the sifu there has a reason. I'm sure he could rip me apart in chi sau either way.
None the less I could take a look and give a very novice based opinion sometime today.
Where are ya located by the way? there could be some schools lurking around in your general area that some of these internet pros could find. Cheers!

 

[James Smith]

Nabakatsu,

Thanks for the quick response and if you do get a chance to see the videos that would be cool. I live in the Northeast Ohio area (Akron). As far as I know there are only two schools in my area both under the same name. I'm willing to go anywhere if it not longer than a 1hr drive each way. If anyone is familiar with the area that would be really cool.

 

[James Smith]

Sorry to double post, I couldn't find an EDIT button. Even though I'm still not sure if I like that Sifu near me, I'm sooooo thankful that I don't have this guy:

According to what he tells observers in this video, he trained directly with Yip Man for $10,000 per month and apparently part of his WC "training" was Yip Man making him do 100 bare knuckle push-ups on a marble floor everyday. Whaaaaaaaaaat. Yeah I'm sure that happened. I don't even see how doing that would have any benefit to your training if this is NOT supposed to be a system based on strength. My would-be Sifu definitely looks a lot better to me now since I don't see videos of him spewing that kind of BS like the dude in the link above lol.

 

[Nabakatsu]

I was unable to find any wing chun in your area, could be worthwhile to check google for anywhere there could be wing chun within an hour of you if that's whatcha feel inclined to do though hehe
Could be worthwhile to check out the class, may be a day or so before I get a chance to check out the videos, busy times afoot over here.