question about tae kwon do kata

[Flying Crane]

It is my understanding that originally Tae Kwon Do practiced the same series of kata as many of the Japanese arts like Shotokan. Later, a new series of kata were created and the Japanese kata were removed from the art. I have heard some TKD people claim that the new kata are not as good as the Japanese kata.

Did this happen, or am I mistaken? If it did happen, what are your thoughts about the new vs. the old forms, and why did this change take place? If this did happen, has the change been uniformly embraced by TKD people, or are there people out there who still do it the old way?

 

[Andrew Green]

http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/index.htm

You can do a side by side if you like. The ones on the left are the Shotokan based ones. I think anyone still doing them is going to be calling them self "Tang Soo Do" or possible "Kong Soo do" (?) basically tote-do and karate-do in Korean, (to-te -> old name of karate).


It did happen, most of the original Korean founders trained in Shotokan durring the Japanese occupation, this became the basis for TKD. After the occupation it began to distance itself from Japan by using Korean Martial arts ideas (Tae Kyon, or what little could be remembered of it) and changed the name to Tae Kwon Do. And eventually new sets of forms where created to express this Korean view, rather then the Japanese one.

 

[Flying Crane]

http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/index.htm

You can do a side by side if you like. The ones on the left are the Shotokan based ones. I think anyone still doing them is going to be calling them self "Tang Soo Do" or possible "Kong Soo do" (?) basically tote-do and karate-do in Korean, (to-te -> old name of karate).


It did happen, most of the original Korean founders trained in Shotokan durring the Japanese occupation, this became the basis for TKD. After the occupation it began to distance itself from Japan by using Korean Martial arts ideas (Tae Kyon, or what little could be remembered of it) and changed the name to Tae Kwon Do. And eventually new sets of forms where created to express this Korean view, rather then the Japanese one.

I'm not sure i am following this. Are the ones listed under Tang soo do just using Korean names, but they are from Shotokan? Are these the Peinan series (i'm not actually familiar with the Shotokan forms, so please forgive me if I am screwing this up), or something else from Shotokan?

 

[Andrew Green]

Actually the names are more Koreanized versions of the original Okinawan names (Funakoshi ended up renaming them)

There are some differences between those and the way a Shotokan practitioner would perform them, but the patterns are the same.


there = okinawan name = shotokan name

pyung-an = pinan = heian

Naihanji = Naihanchi = tekki

etc.

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually the names are more Koreanized versions of the original Okinawan names (Funakoshi ended up renaming them)

There are some differences between those and the way a Shotokan practitioner would perform them, but the patterns are the same.


there = okinawan name = shotokan name

pyung-an = pinan = heian

Naihanji = Naihanchi = tekki

etc.

gotcha. i probably won't ever be entirely clear on the specifics (unless I train tang soo do and shotokan), but i understand that the switch was made. thank you.

 

[mantis]

let me ask a question
is there a reason why the forms feel kind of slow and rigid?
now, im not trying to dis tkd but i didnt feel like there's a natural flow in some of the forms that i watched.
and why is there very few kicks.
maybe i had another image in my head that i seem to have confused.

 

[Gemini]

let me ask a question
is there a reason why the forms feel kind of slow and rigid?
now, im not trying to dis tkd but i didnt feel like there's a natural flow in some of the forms that i watched.
and why is there very few kicks.
maybe i had another image in my head that i seem to have confused.

It would be difficult to answer that without knowing which forms you're talking about. Do you remember the names?

As far as things like flow, slow, rigid may have more to do with the person doing the form than the form itself. Again, I'd need to know which ones you're referring to. If you can remember, great. If not, maybe describe the moves and I could try to grasp it that way.

 

[mantis]

It would be difficult to answer that without knowing which forms you're talking about. Do you remember the names?

As far as things like flow, slow, rigid may have more to do with the person doing the form than the form itself. Again, I'd need to know which ones you're referring to. If you can remember, great. If not, maybe describe the moves and I could try to grasp it that way.

i was looking at http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/index.htm
Kee-Cho Il-Bu, Nihanji Ee-Dan, Chonkwon
as i recall the punches and blocks are the same in shotokan as in TKD.
thank you Gemini

 

[bignick]

Actually, tae kwon do has had revisions to its forms a number of times over the years. Just about everytime a new organization has started they have developed their own forms. For instance, yes, the original forms, as seen in Tang Soo Do were the pretty much exactly the same as Shotokan Karate. However, when tae kwon do was formally organized the Palgwe series of forms were created, which still strongly resembles many karate kata. When organizations like the ITF, ATA, etc formed they created their own forms for their organization. But, back to track, the WTF wanting to, I believe, further distance themselves from the identification of Tae Kwon Do with Karate formed a new set of patterns, called the Tae Geuks, which involve much more kicking and don't bear much resemblence to the Shotokan forms at all.

As for the lineage of the other organization's forms, I'm not the guy to talk to. Because of the multiple splinterings of tae kwon do throughout the years I think you're going to have trouble finding one expert on forms in tae kwon do in general. Especially with some organizations trademarking their forms so, as I understand it, you are not allowed to perform them if you are not a member of that organization.

 

[Gemini]

i was looking at http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/index.htm
Kee-Cho Il-Bu, Nihanji Ee-Dan, Chonkwon
as i recall the punches and blocks are the same in shotokan as in TKD.
thank you Gemini

Unfortunately, I cannot speak to all the forms because I'm not familiar with some of them. I will speak to what I know and saw.

First, in my style, we use Kukkiwon (WTF) recognized forms (poomes) which are Taeguek and Palgwe. We also learned the Kee-Cho Il-Bu and Kee-Cho Ee-Bu but as it was explained to me, those are not so much forms, as pre-form excercises to get students accustomed to forms. Maybe in other TKD or TSD schools they represent more than that. If so, they can speak more to that point.

As to the quality of those forms, I found them to be, though accurate in motion, less than impressive in execution. It's difficult to tell from a video, but yes, they were very stiff. There was no fluidity, snap (did you catch the audio "pop"), or energy in them. Good for learning the steps maybe, but that's about it. I would not hang my hat on using those to make an impression.

If you want to see something with kicks, look at the Taegeuks or Palgwe's, (try Taegeuk Pal-Jang) but you will still see considerably more hand movement than kicks. Keep in mind that TKD got its reputation for the fancy flying kicks due more to the sport aspect than anything else. The forms reflect the more traditional TKD that they were created to represent. Even the kicks they do have are for the most part, basic.

 

[Flying Crane]

Especially with some organizations trademarking their forms so, as I understand it, you are not allowed to perform them if you are not a member of that organization.

If you learned it somehow but were not a member of their organization, do you think they would actually try to go after you in court (or send ninja assasins to rub you out while you were asleep)? It seems to me that it would be pretty difficult to actually try to repress something like that. Esp. since it would be easy to practice in private, and nobody would even know.

I could understand running into trouble if you try to present yourself as a member of an organization that you are not a member of. But simply practicing a movement-based item that they made up, i think that would be hard for them to pursue... I am not sure if you can trademark movement. Especially given the fact that everyone's body is different, no two people are actually doing any movement completely the same anyway.

 

[Marginal]

If you learned it somehow but were not a member of their organization, do you think they would actually try to go after you in court (or send ninja assasins to rub you out while you were asleep)? It seems to me that it would be pretty difficult to actually try to repress something like that. Esp. since it would be easy to practice in private, and nobody would even know.

In private? Nobody would know or care. When it comes to leaving the org and trying to start your own independent school, or hold non sanctioned tournaments, the TM issue raises its head.

As to the question of why the forms look stiff, it depends on the org etc. A lot of the influence right now is to demonstrate the proper execution of each technique in a pattern, which leads to posing each technique before initiating the next movement.

The early stuff, like what shows up on the ITF TKD pioneers DVD, is done extremely fast with no discernable break from one technique to the next.

 

[Flying Crane]

In private? Nobody would know or care. When it comes to leaving the org and trying to start your own independent school, or hold non sanctioned tournaments, the TM issue raises its head.

Do they think that you have unlearned everything that you learned just because you have left the organization?

If you are a ranked and recognized instructor in their organization, and you leave the organization and open up your own school as an independent (or continue to run a school that you already run, but as an independent), but obviously you are still teaching the same curriculum because that is what you know, these guys think they can stop you? Obviously you cannot claim membership in the org., any rank you give to your students is not recognized by the org., but do they actually think they can stop you from practicing and teaching what you know, or holding your own independent tournament? You cannot unring a bell. You cannot unlearn what you have learned.

Rank, once given, cannot be taken back, because it represents knowledge and skill. The organization can choose to no longer recognize you as a member or representative, but I don't think they can demand that you no longer hold rank, or that you no longer practice or teach what you have learned. If any of my teachers told me I had to give back my belt because I no longer train with them or their organization, I would tell them to piss off, but in much stronger language. Am I crazy for thinking this?

 

[Marginal]

In the case of the patterns, they're not taking away your rank. They're making it impossible for you to compete with them. It's a business decision, not a MA related one.

 

[Shu2jack]

I could understand running into trouble if you try to present yourself as a member of an organization that you are not a member of. But simply practicing a movement-based item that they made up, i think that would be hard for them to pursue... I am not sure if you can trademark movement. Especially given the fact that everyone's body is different, no two people are actually doing any movement completely the same anyway.

Do they think that you have unlearned everything that you learned just because you have left the organization?

If you are a ranked and recognized instructor in their organization, and you leave the organization and open up your own school as an independent (or continue to run a school that you already run, but as an independent), but obviously you are still teaching the same curriculum because that is what you know, these guys think they can stop you? Obviously you cannot claim membership in the org., any rank you give to your students is not recognized by the org., but do they actually think they can stop you from practicing and teaching what you know, or holding your own independent tournament? You cannot unring a bell. You cannot unlearn what you have learned.

Rank, once given, cannot be taken back, because it represents knowledge and skill. The organization can choose to no longer recognize you as a member or representative, but I don't think they can demand that you no longer hold rank, or that you no longer practice or teach what you have learned. If any of my teachers told me I had to give back my belt because I no longer train with them or their organization, I would tell them to piss off, but in much stronger language. Am I crazy for thinking this?

As an ATA member, I study forms that are copy righted. If I were to leave the ATA, I could still practice the forms. I don't think anyone would really know if I competed with them. But if I were to run a school and use the material I would face legal action, and some instructors have faced legal action.

It is not that the organization is taking away your rank, it is that you are using copy-righted material to make yourself money. I believe a certain percentage of the techniques in a form need to be changed.

Basically what the ATA is saying is, if you leave our organization and want to go your own path, that is fine. But stop using our stuff and make up your own.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

As an ATA member, I study forms that are copy righted. If I were to leave the ATA, I could still practice the forms. I don't think anyone would really know if I competed with them. But if I were to run a school and use the material I would face legal action, and some instructors have faced legal action.

It is not that the organization is taking away your rank, it is that you are using copy-righted material to make yourself money. I believe a certain percentage of the techniques in a form need to be changed.

Basically what the ATA is saying is, if you leave our organization and want to go your own path, that is fine. But stop using our stuff and make up your own.

I don't doubt what you're saying is true, but I don't think the "copyright" is legally binding when it comes to that version of intellectual property. I'm pretty sure you could teach the forms. They might sue, but I don't think they'd recover anything from it.

Any lawyers here know anything about intellectual property? I'd be interested in knowing.

Some interesting thoughts brought up here on forms. I should mention that if anyone has Choi's old one volume ITF text from decades ago that shows the Shotokan forms...KEEP IT. Its probably worth a lot. I sold mine twenty five years ago...like an idiot.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Shu2jack]

I don't doubt what you're saying is true, but I don't think the "copyright" is legally binding when it comes to that version of intellectual property. I'm pretty sure you could teach the forms. They might sue, but I don't think they'd recover anything from it.

Any lawyers here know anything about intellectual property? I'd be interested in knowing.

Some interesting thoughts brought up here on forms. I should mention that if anyone has Choi's old one volume ITF text from decades ago that shows the Shotokan forms...KEEP IT. Its probably worth a lot. I sold mine twenty five years ago...like an idiot.


Regards,


Steve

Regardless of the out come of a long drawn out legal battle, some ex-ATA instructors who have left the ATA and taken their schools with them have been taken to court because they kept using our material. I don't know any details, but those instructors stopped using our material. If it is because they lost or if they backed down, I don't know.

I do think the ATA does have a good case though. The forms simply were not made up and copy righted. The late GM didn't just pull the forms out of his butt and decide to get sole ownership of them.

I don't know because I am not a lawyer, but I think the fact that he counsulted many professionals in physical training, child development (both physical and mental), etc. over many years to create a standardized system that our copy right would have some good legal standing.

 

[arnisador]

Forms change from time to time in all orgs., but in most karate schools the basics are well set and the changes are minor ones of interpretation. I know that TKD, being newer, has gone through some major changes in forms.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I don't know because I am not a lawyer, but I think the fact that he counsulted many professionals in physical training, child development (both physical and mental), etc. over many years to create a standardized system that our copy right would have some good legal standing.

I did some research on this. Your GM actually could have pulled the forms out of his butt and they still could have been protected (I'm not saying he did).

Copyright doesn't require merit for it to exist, and copyright doesn't impart merit by its existence, one should note.

In truth, if I write or create something, it technically belongs to me even if I don't register it. Copyright registration has the advantage of documenting one's claim to the intellectual property.

If I recall this issue of physcial routines was determined when an issue of dance choreography arose.

http://www.abanet.org/intelprop/comm106/106copy.html#what COPYRIGHT IS


Regards,


Steve

 

[Flying Crane]

I did some research on this. Your GM actually could have pulled the forms out of his butt and they still could have been protected (I'm not saying he did).

Copyright doesn't require merit for it to exist, and copyright doesn't impart merit by its existence, one should note.

In truth, if I write or create something, it technically belongs to me even if I don't register it. Copyright registration has the advantage of documenting one's claim to the intellectual property.

If I recall this issue of physcial routines was determined when an issue of dance choreography arose.

http://www.abanet.org/intelprop/comm106/106copy.html#what%20COPYRIGHT%20IS


Regards,


Steve

This has become a very interesting topic, a bit off what my original question was, but very very interesting and I am actually glad it has taken the direction it has.

Here is a thought on this: when you teach something to someone, they now have that knowledge. Knowledge is an intangible thing. What someone does with it cannot be controlled by others. If this person takes that knowledge and teaches it to another person, once again, how can someone stop them? Knowledge is not a product such as software or a book or a video, that might be sold in pirated or bootlegged versions. If something is pirated, there is legal recourse that can be taken. But if someone is passing on knowledge, how can someone else stop them?

If Pythagoras had copywrited his theorem and prevented his students from teaching it to others unless he was paid royalties, where would mathematics be today? I think that when you make a decision to teach something to someone, then you are also making a decision to relinquish some level of control over what you have taught.

Now, that being said, If one of these orgs. did file a lawsuit against someone, whether or not they would win, it does become very expensive to defend against. That might be enough incentive for the independent guy to make enough changes in the curriculum to keep the Corporate goons happy.

If this kind of thing actually happens out there, i think it is an extremely unfortunate and sad level of politics. actually, rather mind-blowing. It takes a student/teacher relationship, something that should have had a level of sacredness to it, and turns it into a business plan.