Pushing-hands Discussion

[FighterTwister]

"PUSH-HANDS"

Who here has done or practiced Pushing-hands a similar form of Chi-Sao but derived from Tai-Chi Quan style fighting?


Its methodology is to follow the hands in the energy flow direction of movement but has great applications for offensive and defensive applications.

In the right instance it can be used in a very practical and aggressive way watch...........

As you can see it can be a subtle soft form and instinctively switched to a very aggressive form when you have that advantage of balance and energy to push out a burst of force outward unto your opponent or move from out and swing your opponent etc there are more videos online if interested.

If you combine say for example modern BJJ tactics or close quarter hand to hand tactics you could manage to upset balance or subdue the opponent with strikes passing his guard etc.

If you have used this drill/principle.method to what advantage, outcome and benefit or how has helped you?


About

Training pushing hands
In t'ai chi ch'uan, pushing hands is used to acquaint students with the principles of what are known as the "Eight Gates and Five Steps," eight different leverage applications in the arms accompanied by footwork in a range of motion, intended to allow students to defend themselves calmly and competently if attacked. Also known as the "13 original movements of tai chi", a posture expressing each one of these aspects is found in all tai chi styles. Training and pushing hands competitions generally involve contact but no strikes.



The practitioner on the right demonstrates how péng can be used to resist a push
The three primary principles of movement cultivated by push hands practice are:[3]

• Rooting - Stability of stance, a highly trained sense of balance in the face of force.
• Yielding - The ability to flow with incoming force from any angle. The practitioner moves with the attacker's force fluidly without compromising their own balance.
• Release of Power (Fa Jing) - The application of power to an opponent. Even while applying force in push hands one maintains the principles of Yielding and Rooting at all times.

The Eight Gates (Chinese: 八門; pinyin: bā mén):

P'eng (Chinese: 掤; pinyin: péng) - An upward circular movement, forward or backward, yielding or offsetting usually with the arms to disrupt the opponent's centre of gravity, often translated as "Ward Off." Peng is also described more subtly as an energetic quality that should be present in every taiji movement as a part of the concept of "song" (鬆) -- or relaxation -- providing alertness, the strength to maintain structure when pressed, and absence of muscular tension in the body.
Lü (Chinese: 捋; pinyin: lǚ) - A sideways, circular yielding movement, often translated as "Roll Back."
Chi (simplified Chinese: 挤; traditional Chinese: 擠; pinyin: jǐ) - A pressing or squeezing offset in a direction away from the body, usually done with the back of the hand or outside edge of the forearm. Chi is often translated as "Press."
An (Chinese: 按; pinyin: àn) - To offset with the hand, usually a slight lift up with the fingers then a push down with the palm, which can appear as a strike if done quickly. Often translated as "Push."
Tsai (Chinese: 採; pinyin: cǎi) - To pluck or pick downwards with the hand, especially with the fingertips or palm. The word tsai is part of the compound that means to gather, collect or pluck a tea leaf from a branch (採茶, cǎi chá). Often translated "Pluck" or "Grasp."
Lieh (Chinese: 挒; pinyin: liè) - Lieh means to separate, to twist or to offset with a spiral motion, often while making immobile another part of the body (such as a hand or leg) to split an opponent's body thereby destroying posture and balance. Lieh is often translated as "Split."
Chou (Chinese: 肘; pinyin: zhǒu) - To strike or push with the elbow. Usually translated as "Elbow Strike" or "Elbow Stroke" or just plain "Elbow."
K'ao (Chinese: 靠; pinyin: kào) - To strike or push with the shoulder or upper back. The word k'ao implies leaning or inclining. Usually translated "Shoulder Strike," "Shoulder Stroke" or "Shoulder."
The Five Steps (Chinese: 五步; pinyin: wǔ bù):

Chin Pu (Chinese: 進步; pinyin: jìn bù) - Forward step.
T'ui Pu (Chinese: 退步; pinyin: tùi bù) - Backward step.
Tsuo Ku (simplified Chinese: 左顾; traditional Chinese: 左顧; pinyin: zǔo gù) - Left step.
You P'an (Chinese: 右盼; pinyin: yòu pàn) - Right step.
Chung Ting (Chinese: 中定; pinyin: zhōng dìng) - The central position, balance, equilibrium. Not just the physical center, but a condition which is expected to be present at all times in the first four steps as well, associated with the concept of rooting (the stability said to be achieved by a correctly aligned, thoroughly relaxed body as a result of correct Tai Chi training). Chung ting can also be compared to the Taoist concept of moderation or the Buddhist "middle way" as discouraging extremes of behavior, or in this case, movement. An extreme of movement, usually characterized as leaning to one side or the other, destroys a practitioner's balance and enables defeat.

*** Online Reference:- Pushing hands - Wikipedia

I like it its a good exercise and builds up intensity and concentration good for a training drill and other applicable situations I think anyway.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Trained a lot of push hands, there are various types
single hand stationary
double hand stationary
single hand moving
double hand moving
3 step
4 corner
1 step
follow step
free style

It is applied when you feel that your opponents center can be exploited, there is little to no muscle exertion, but fajin does come into play

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know how applicable it is to actual combat/defense, but I do know it can be an impressive skill. I had a chance to play with a competitive push-hands champion (I've long since forgotten what group/competition he was champion of). He had a broken foot (two broken toe bones) at the time, and was entirely unmovable within the bounds of push-hands. At one point, several of us (all experienced martial artists) pushed on him at the same time, and he managed to redirect all of that and unbalance us. Very cool.

 

[CB Jones]

Who here has done or practiced Pushing-hands a similar form of Chi-Sao but derived from Tai-Chi Quan style fighting?

I did some thumb wrestling back in the day.....does that count?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't know how applicable it is to actual combat/defense, but I do know it can be an impressive skill. I had a chance to play with a competitive push-hands champion (I've long since forgotten what group/competition he was champion of). He had a broken foot (two broken toe bones) at the time, and was entirely unmovable within the bounds of push-hands. At one point, several of us (all experienced martial artists) pushed on him at the same time, and he managed to redirect all of that and unbalance us. Very cool.

I've trained both and Traditionally speaking, competition push hands and traditional push hands is not the same thing and they are training two different things. Competition push hands is not training taijiquan, it is training wrestling.

 

[jobo]

I don't know how applicable it is to actual combat/defense, but I do know it can be an impressive skill. I had a chance to play with a competitive push-hands champion (I've long since forgotten what group/competition he was champion of). He had a broken foot (two broken toe bones) at the time, and was entirely unmovable within the bounds of push-hands. At one point, several of us (all experienced martial artists) pushed on him at the same time, and he managed to redirect all of that and unbalance us. Very cool.

its applicable really in two ways, one its a psychological trick, once you have someone locked in to the pushing and pulling thing they find it hard to disengage , and will just push and pull harder and harder, of course you can get yourself locked into it as well. There seems little need to do it for more than a few seconds, by which time you should have them off balance and you simple pull whilst they push or vice versa

and forgetting the silly hands thing , it teaches you to redirect and exploit your opponents strengh, which again is down to breaking the push pull reflex, I've used d that numerous real word times , someone tries to push me, grab their wrist and go backwards hard, and then simply turn and let them go, it looks really cool, i had,a guy go miles and end up upside down in a bush once

 

[Gerry Seymour]

its applicable really in two ways, one its a psychological trick, once you have someone locked in to the pushing and pulling thing they find it hard to disengage , and will just push and pull harder and harder, of course you can get yourself locked into it as well. There seems little need to do it for more than a few seconds, by which time you should have them off balance and you simple pull whilst they push or vice versa

and forgetting the silly hands thing , it teaches you to redirect and exploit your opponents strengh, which again is down to breaking the push pull reflex, I've used d that numerous real word times , someone tries to push me, grab their wrist and go backwards hard, and then simply turn and let them go, it looks really cool, i had,a guy go miles and end up upside down in a bush once

Yep. We train those same concepts, sometimes even using a push-hands type of exercise. I'm just not familiar with the CMA push hands training, so can't speak to its applicability.

 

[jobo]

Yep. We train those same concepts, sometimes even using a push-hands type of exercise. I'm just not familiar with the CMA push hands training, so can't speak to its applicability.

it fails as soon as the other guy grabs your wrist instead of co operating by just using open hands, which they will do very quickly, this why you have only a few seconds to do something with it. Great training drill, restricted application

 

[jobo]

"PUSH-HANDS"

Who here has done or practiced Pushing-hands a similar form of Chi-Sao but derived from Tai-Chi Quan style fighting?


Its methodology is to follow the hands in the energy flow direction of movement but has great applications for offensive and defensive applications.

In the right instance it can be used in a very practical and aggressive way watch...........

As you can see it can be a subtle soft form and instinctively switched to a very aggressive form when you have that advantage of balance and energy to push out a burst of force outward unto your opponent or move from out and swing your opponent etc there are more videos online if interested.

If you combine say for example modern BJJ tactics or close quarter hand to hand tactics you could manage to upset balance or subdue the opponent with strikes passing his guard etc.

If you have used this drill/principle.method to what advantage, outcome and benefit or how has helped you?


About

Training pushing hands
In t'ai chi ch'uan, pushing hands is used to acquaint students with the principles of what are known as the "Eight Gates and Five Steps," eight different leverage applications in the arms accompanied by footwork in a range of motion, intended to allow students to defend themselves calmly and competently if attacked. Also known as the "13 original movements of tai chi", a posture expressing each one of these aspects is found in all tai chi styles. Training and pushing hands competitions generally involve contact but no strikes.



The practitioner on the right demonstrates how péng can be used to resist a push
The three primary principles of movement cultivated by push hands practice are:[3]

• Rooting - Stability of stance, a highly trained sense of balance in the face of force.
• Yielding - The ability to flow with incoming force from any angle. The practitioner moves with the attacker's force fluidly without compromising their own balance.
• Release of Power (Fa Jing) - The application of power to an opponent. Even while applying force in push hands one maintains the principles of Yielding and Rooting at all times.

The Eight Gates (Chinese: 八門; pinyin: bā mén):

P'eng (Chinese: 掤; pinyin: péng) - An upward circular movement, forward or backward, yielding or offsetting usually with the arms to disrupt the opponent's centre of gravity, often translated as "Ward Off." Peng is also described more subtly as an energetic quality that should be present in every taiji movement as a part of the concept of "song" (鬆) -- or relaxation -- providing alertness, the strength to maintain structure when pressed, and absence of muscular tension in the body.
Lü (Chinese: 捋; pinyin: lǚ) - A sideways, circular yielding movement, often translated as "Roll Back."
Chi (simplified Chinese: 挤; traditional Chinese: 擠; pinyin: jǐ) - A pressing or squeezing offset in a direction away from the body, usually done with the back of the hand or outside edge of the forearm. Chi is often translated as "Press."
An (Chinese: 按; pinyin: àn) - To offset with the hand, usually a slight lift up with the fingers then a push down with the palm, which can appear as a strike if done quickly. Often translated as "Push."
Tsai (Chinese: 採; pinyin: cǎi) - To pluck or pick downwards with the hand, especially with the fingertips or palm. The word tsai is part of the compound that means to gather, collect or pluck a tea leaf from a branch (採茶, cǎi chá). Often translated "Pluck" or "Grasp."
Lieh (Chinese: 挒; pinyin: liè) - Lieh means to separate, to twist or to offset with a spiral motion, often while making immobile another part of the body (such as a hand or leg) to split an opponent's body thereby destroying posture and balance. Lieh is often translated as "Split."
Chou (Chinese: 肘; pinyin: zhǒu) - To strike or push with the elbow. Usually translated as "Elbow Strike" or "Elbow Stroke" or just plain "Elbow."
K'ao (Chinese: 靠; pinyin: kào) - To strike or push with the shoulder or upper back. The word k'ao implies leaning or inclining. Usually translated "Shoulder Strike," "Shoulder Stroke" or "Shoulder."
The Five Steps (Chinese: 五步; pinyin: wǔ bù):

Chin Pu (Chinese: 進步; pinyin: jìn bù) - Forward step.
T'ui Pu (Chinese: 退步; pinyin: tùi bù) - Backward step.
Tsuo Ku (simplified Chinese: 左顾; traditional Chinese: 左顧; pinyin: zǔo gù) - Left step.
You P'an (Chinese: 右盼; pinyin: yòu pàn) - Right step.
Chung Ting (Chinese: 中定; pinyin: zhōng dìng) - The central position, balance, equilibrium. Not just the physical center, but a condition which is expected to be present at all times in the first four steps as well, associated with the concept of rooting (the stability said to be achieved by a correctly aligned, thoroughly relaxed body as a result of correct Tai Chi training). Chung ting can also be compared to the Taoist concept of moderation or the Buddhist "middle way" as discouraging extremes of behavior, or in this case, movement. An extreme of movement, usually characterized as leaning to one side or the other, destroys a practitioner's balance and enables defeat.

*** Online Reference:- Pushing hands - Wikipedia

I like it its a good exercise and builds up intensity and concentration good for a training drill and other applicable situations I think anyway.

those vids have just an element of chi balls, the way the guy jumps in the air when push or pulled has a slightly over dramatic theme to it

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it fails as soon as the other guy grabs your wrist ...

This is the main issue for both

- Taiji push hand, and
- WC sticky hand.

Both training doesn't go beyond "clinch". IMO, why do you want to train your MA 1/2 way and not all the way?

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is the main issue for both

- Taiji push hand, and
- WC sticky hand.

Both training doesn't go beyond "clinch". IMO, why do you want to train your MA 1/2 way and not all the way?

Then you have never trained push hands as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh or Chen family for that matter . Tung Ying Chieh: We have shuaijiao and qinna in the free style version. And I have seen Chen family use it and throw people on the ground. Both go beyond a clinch, at least in traditional.

But bottom-line, push hands is more of a training tool than a way to fight. It can be used In fighting, but not as you see it in training...

 

[FighterTwister]

Trained a lot of push hands, there are various types
single hand stationary
double hand stationary
single hand moving
double hand moving
3 step
4 corner
1 step
follow step
free style

It is applied when you feel that your opponents center can be exploited, there is little to no muscle exertion, but fajin does come into play

I nearly forgot about this thread thanks Xue Sheng for replying.

Great to know you have trained allot using this training application can you please elaborate more on the experience and mechanics?

• Who trained with you exactly was he a grand master?
• How were energies mastered?
• How were methods of attack countered? E.g Like going for a push or a knee take down etc.
• What subtle traps are there in Push Hands or sleight- of- hand techniques etc?
• So on.............. please elaborate.............

I've trained both and Traditionally speaking, competition push hands and traditional push hands is not the same thing and they are training two different things. Competition push hands is not training taijiquan, it is training wrestling.

Then you have never trained push hands as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh or Chen family for that matter . Tung Ying Chieh: We have shuaijiao and qinna in the free style version. And I have seen Chen family use it and throw people on the ground. Both go beyond a clinch, at least in traditional.

But bottom-line, push hands is more of a training tool than a way to fight. It can be used In fighting, but not as you see it in training...

Sadly, this is the problem where many things get twisted or lost in translation so to speak.

Application vs Training vs Sports Competition vs Fighting

Are subdivisions of the art form that may use the principle in some form but varied in application because of Rule Sets and Restrictions placed, Point Scoring Techniques or different approach altogether.

People either get it or they don't!

I used to argue this to death but you cant teach it only point to it, if they receive it and take it as their own and learn they will understand and master it.

The Drill is using a concept in a simpler form but nevertheless its application is real to a fight, for example Chi-Sao so misunderstood and so many people fail to see the real application in a fight and when to use it. Rather than walking up to a fight with arms out like in training in the hope to lock into a Chi-Sao, best way to get knocked out.

The intent and purpose of any movement is usually within its range and time of application.

I mean would you kick-box to a thigh if your are in a clinch, no right, it's silly.

Understanding "Range" and the "Right Instance" is the natural expression to put it into better terms.

I want to know more if you can Xue Sheng

Again Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

• Who trained with you exactly was he a grand master?

There are no Grand masters in traditional Chinese marital arts on mainland China and my shifu is form mainland. Grand master is used for Westerners, My sifu absolutely will not allow his students to call him Grand master. On mainland, between marital artists, if one calls the other a grandmaster, if they are friends they are likely joking, if they are not friends it is an insult and a fight could very likely begin.

My shifu was a student of Tung Ying Cheih and assisted Shigong Tung's oldest son Tung Hu Ling in opening a school in Thailand in the 1950s.

• How were energies mastered?

Actually I do not like the term master, IMO as soon as you think you have mastered something, learning stops.

Are you talking about Ba Jin (the 8 energies)?

Not sure they are mastered, know what they are, use them, that is about it.

• How were methods of attack countered? E.g Like going for a push or a knee take down etc.

I no longer do an competition push hands training, have not for years. I only do traditional and what I do depends completely on the energy coming at me

• What subtle traps are there in Push Hands or sleight- of- hand techniques etc?

Again it all depends on the energy coming at me. It is all qinna, and to quote my shifu, when I asked him how he lock me so easily, "You lock yourself" I am not his level, but i do not look to force anything, it is up to the other guy as to what I do.

• So on.............. please elaborate.............

Sorry, I am likely not of much help here. I will add to use taiji properly takes years, I have been at it for over 20 years and I still cannot best my shifu, who is much older and much smaller than I am. Basically taiji takes patience to learn and in application. I have never seen my shifu look upset or as if he was straining to do anything in taiji, be that doing the form, applications or during push hands. Frankly I think one of the most disturbing things when you do push hands with him is that he is so relaxed and looks happy the entire time. Note my current shifu, who I have been training with for over 20 years, does not know of train competition push hands. My first shifu is the one that trained me in competition push hands. I trained with him for about 4 years, starting 25 years ago.

 

[FighterTwister]

There are no Grand masters in traditional Chinese marital arts on mainland China and my shifu is form mainland. Grand master is used for Westerners, My sifu absolutely will not allow his students to call him Grand master. On mainland, between marital artists, if one calls the other a grandmaster, if they are friends they are likely joking, if they are not friends it is an insult and a fight could very likely begin.

My shifu was a student of Tung Ying Cheih and assisted Shigong Tung's oldest son Tung Hu Ling in opening a school in Thailand in the 1950s.



Actually I do not like the term master, IMO as soon as you think you have mastered something, learning stops.

Are you talking about Ba Jin (the 8 energies)?

Not sure they are mastered, know what they are, use them, that is about it.



I no longer do an competition push hands training, have not for years. I only do traditional and what I do depends completely on the energy coming at me



Again it all depends on the energy coming at me. It is all qinna, and to quote my shifu, when I asked him how he lock me so easily, "You lock yourself" I am not his level, but i do not look to force anything, it is up to the other guy as to what I do.

Sorry, I am likely not of much help here. I will add to use taiji properly takes years, I have been at it for over 20 years and I still cannot best my shifu, who is much older and much smaller than I am. Basically taiji takes patience to learn and in application. I have never seen my shifu look upset or as if he was straining to do anything in taiji, be that doing the form, applications or during push hands. Frankly I think one of the most disturbing things when you do push hands with him is that he is so relaxed and looks happy the entire time. Note my current shifu, who I have been training with for over 20 years, does not know of train competition push hands. My first shifu is the one that trained me in competition push hands. I trained with him for about 4 years, starting 25 years ago.

Huh, okay, right, I understand where you are now.

Also yes the energies and different states including Gates and Steps and working flow of trappings, strikes, grabs, locks, take downs ... etc.... that simulates angles of attack we do this in JKD Hubud and Chi-Sao.

Would like to see good video lessons step by step to incorporate into my training with Chi-Sao and Hubud and maybe switching from say as an example upper double Tan-Sau to other forms like pushing hands is see this in my head as a working switch parrying out on one hand and starting another technique and style.

Or simply stated other forms of attacks and escape switching techniques.

Difficult to discuss what I would like to try on a Forum but just switching techniques is what I'm looking for to develop and incorporate into my training.

Also yeah, I know all the different Sifu / Shifu, Sensei, Instructor Snr /Jnr, Grand Master titles very just kind of use to the Grand Master monica for those at high level proficiency thought it would be easier to understand for readers in general, so never-mind just us westerners LoL

Well would have liked to know more, sadly allot of these Martial Arts are disappearing because the whole MMA as taken over in all fitness centers so trying to find people to talk to is harder nowadays.

Well thanks for answering anyway.

Cheers

 

[Xue Sheng]

Huh, okay, right, I understand where you are now.

Also yes the energies and different states including Gates and Steps and working flow of trappings, strikes, grabs, locks, take downs ... etc.... that simulates angles of attack we do this in JKD Hubud and Chi-Sao.

Would like to see good video lessons step by step to incorporate into my training with Chi-Sao and Hubud and maybe switching from say as an example upper double Tan-Sau to other forms like pushing hands is see this in my head as a working switch parrying out on one hand and starting another technique and style.

Or simply stated other forms of attacks and escape switching techniques.

Difficult to discuss what I would like to try on a Forum but just switching techniques is what I'm looking for to develop and incorporate into my training.

Also yeah, I know all the different Sifu / Shifu, Sensei, Instructor Snr /Jnr, Grand Master titles very just kind of use to the Grand Master monica for those at high level proficiency thought it would be easier to understand for readers in general, so never-mind just us westerners LoL

Well would have liked to know more, sadly allot of these Martial Arts are disappearing because the whole MMA as taken over in all fitness centers so trying to find people to talk to is harder nowadays.

Well thanks for answering anyway.

Cheers

8 energies and 5 gates is called the 13 postures and Chi Sao and JKD, although effective are not applied the same as taijiqun. I have trained a bit of Wing Chun and I have done chi-sau and I have worked with Wing Chun folks doing Chi-Sau as I did Taiji push hands... they are not the same, traditionally.

You can work on the way to deal with attacks in what I previously mentioned, 1 step push hands, or free style.

And thank you, but no, I do not want a video lesson.