Pushing back the green movement...

[billc]

Here is an article on one activist trying to put some sense into the discussion of environmental issues...

http://pjmedia.com/blog/a-new-hope-for-beating-back-the-regressive-green-movement/

The sign at her feet read “For a nuclear free, carbon free future.” The one in her hands an equally predictable “Excessive wealth and consumption are dying paradigms. Renew American with a Green Revolution.”
Before her stood Alex Epstein, energy expert and [URL="http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=library&series-id=All&tag-id=22&from-date=All&to-date=All&include-future=false&sort=date&reverse=true&page=1&library-results-per-page=10&all-text=false&newValue=&video-id=&query-string-library=alex+epstein"]frequent PJTV guest commentator

. Noting the sign on the sidewalk, Epstein asked, “You’re opposed to nuclear power and [carbon dioxide] generating power?”
“Yes,” she answered.
“Do you know what percentage of power in the world those generate right now?”
“That’s not my concern. My concern is the people that are profiting off of power that is unsustainable….”
Calm among the hubbub of Zuccotti Park, Epstein endured a lengthy non-response, then answered the question for her.
“We’re talking about something that’s producing 95% of the power in the world,” he stated flatly. “This is the power that’s keeping people’s lights on. It’s keeping the food going. And you’re saying we ought to dismantle that somehow. And I’m saying, if that happens, the entire world as we know it will collapse.”
This is how Epstein and his cohort at the Center for Industrial Progress confront the menace of radical environmentalism. There is a difference between caring about the world we live in and elevating wilderness above human life. The former motivates industrious action, shaping the environment to promote a thriving human existence. The latter retards industry and reduces both the quality of life and the capacity to sustain it.
Tea Partiers concerned with limiting the influence of government in our lives have a tremendous resource in the Center for Industrial Progress. PJ Media sat down with Epstein to explore why.

[/URL]

 

[granfire]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] From http://www.halcyon.com/arborhts/chiefsea.html :

Version 1 (below) appeared in the Seattle Sunday Star on Oct. 29, 1887, in a column by Dr. Henry A. Smith.

[h=3]"CHIEF SEATTLE'S 1854 ORATION" - ver . 1[/h] AUTHENTIC TEXT OF CHIEF SEATTLE'S TREATY ORATION 1854

Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion upon my people for centuries untold, and which to us appears changeless and eternal, may change. Today is fair. Tomorrow it may be overcast with clouds. My words are like the stars that never change. Whatever Seattle says, the great chief at Washington can rely upon with as much certainty as he can upon the return of the sun or the seasons. The white chief says that Big Chief at Washington sends us greetings of friendship and goodwill. This is kind of him for we know he has little need of our friendship in return. His people are many. They are like the grass that covers vast prairies. My people are few. They resemble the scattering trees of a storm-swept plain. The great, and I presume -- good, White Chief sends us word that he wishes to buy our land but is willing to allow us enough to live comfortably. This indeed appears just, even generous, for the Red Man no longer has rights that he need respect, and the offer may be wise, also, as we are no longer in need of an extensive country.

There was a time when our people covered the land as the waves of a wind-ruffled sea cover its shell-paved floor, but that time long since passed away with the greatness of tribes that are now but a mournful memory. I will not dwell on, nor mourn over, our untimely decay, nor reproach my paleface brothers with hastening it, as we too may have been somewhat to blame.

Youth is impulsive. When our young men grow angry at some real or imaginary wrong, and disfigure their faces with black paint, it denotes that their hearts are black, and that they are often cruel and relentless, and our old men and old women are unable to restrain them. Thus it has ever been. Thus it was when the white man began to push our forefathers ever westward. But let us hope that the hostilities between us may never return. We would have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Revenge by young men is considered gain, even at the cost of their own lives, but old men who stay at home in times of war, and mothers who have sons to lose, know better.

Our good father in Washington--for I presume he is now our father as well as yours, since King George has moved his boundaries further north--our great and good father, I say, sends us word that if we do as he desires he will protect us. His brave warriors will be to us a bristling wall of strength, and his wonderful ships of war will fill our harbors, so that our ancient enemies far to the northward -- the Haidas and Tsimshians -- will cease to frighten our women, children, and old men. Then in reality he will be our father and we his children. But can that ever be? Your God is not our God! Your God loves your people and hates mine! He folds his strong protecting arms lovingly about the paleface and leads him by the hand as a father leads an infant son. But, He has forsaken His Red children, if they really are His. Our God, the Great Spirit, seems also to have forsaken us. Your God makes your people wax stronger every day. Soon they will fill all the land. Our people are ebbing away like a rapidly receding tide that will never return. The white man's God cannot love our people or He would protect them. They seem to be orphans who can look nowhere for help. How then can we be brothers? How can your God become our God and renew our prosperity and awaken in us dreams of returning greatness? If we have a common Heavenly Father He must be partial, for He came to His paleface children. We never saw Him. He gave you laws but had no word for His red children whose teeming multitudes once filled this vast continent as stars fill the firmament. No; we are two distinct races with separate origins and separate destinies. There is little in common between us.

To us the ashes of our ancestors are sacred and their resting place is hallowed ground. You wander far from the graves of your ancestors and seemingly without regret. Your religion was written upon tablets of stone by the iron finger of your God so that you could not forget. The Red Man could never comprehend or remember it. Our religion is the traditions of our ancestors -- the dreams of our old men, given them in solemn hours of the night by the Great Spirit; and the visions of our sachems, and is written in the hearts of our people.

Your dead cease to love you and the land of their nativity as soon as they pass the portals of the tomb and wander away beyond the stars. They are soon forgotten and never return. Our dead never forget this beautiful world that gave them being. They still love its verdant valleys, its murmuring rivers, its magnificent mountains, sequestered vales and verdant lined lakes and bays, and ever yearn in tender fond affection over the lonely hearted living, and often return from the happy hunting ground to visit, guide, console, and comfort them.

Day and night cannot dwell together. The Red Man has ever fled the approach of the White Man, as the morning mist flees before the morning sun. However, your proposition seems fair and I think that my people will accept it and will retire to the reservation you offer them. Then we will dwell apart in peace, for the words of the Great White Chief seem to be the words of nature speaking to my people out of dense darkness.

It matters little where we pass the remnant of our days. They will not be many. The Indian's night promises to be dark. Not a single star of hope hovers above his horizon. Sad-voiced winds moan in the distance. Grim fate seems to be on the Red Man's trail, and wherever he will hear the approaching footsteps of his fell destroyer and prepare stolidly to meet his doom, as does the wounded doe that hears the approaching footsteps of the hunter.

A few more moons, a few more winters, and not one of the descendants of the mighty hosts that once moved over this broad land or lived in happy homes, protected by the Great Spirit, will remain to mourn over the graves of a people once more powerful and hopeful than yours. But why should I mourn at the untimely fate of my people? Tribe follows tribe, and nation follows nation, like the waves of the sea. It is the order of nature, and regret is useless. Your time of decay may be distant, but it will surely come, for even the White Man whose God walked and talked with him as friend to friend, cannot be exempt from the common destiny. We may be brothers after all. We will see.

We will ponder your proposition and when we decide we will let you know. But should we accept it, I here and now make this condition that we will not be denied the privilege without molestation of visiting at any time the tombs of our ancestors, friends, and children. Every part of this soil is sacred in the estimation of my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove, has been hallowed by some sad or happy event in days long vanished. Even the rocks, which seem to be dumb and dead as the swelter in the sun along the silent shore, thrill with memories of stirring events connected with the lives of my people, and the very dust upon which you now stand responds more lovingly to their footsteps than yours, because it is rich with the blood of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch. Our departed braves, fond mothers, glad, happy hearted maidens, and even the little children who lived here and rejoiced here for a brief season, will love these somber solitudes and at eventide they greet shadowy returning spirits. And when the last Red Man shall have perished, and the memory of my tribe shall have become a myth among the White Men, these shores will swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe, and when your children's children think themselves alone in the field, the store, the shop, upon the highway, or in the silence of the pathless woods, they will not be alone. In all the earth there is no place dedicated to solitude. At night when the streets of your cities and villages are silent and you think them deserted, they will throng with the returning hosts that once filled them and still love this beautiful land. The White Man will never be alone.

Let him be just and deal kindly with my people, for the dead are not powerless. Dead, did I say? There is no death, only a change of worlds.

[/FONT]

 

[billc]

Hmmm...on that speech...

http://www.thefarm.org/lifestyle/albertbates/akbseattle.html

Two other short speeches by Chief Seattle are in the National Archives. One was
a fragment of a speech recorded in 1850 and the other, from May of 1858, was a
lament by Seattle that the Port Elliott treaty had failed to win ratification in
the US Senate, leaving the tribes in poverty and poor health. Those four short
speeches are all we really know of the words of Chief Seattle.

The myth
of Chief Seattle's famous oration began on October 29, 1887. On that date, Dr.
Henry A. Smith published an article in the Seattle Sunday Star under the
heading "Early Reminiscences No. 10. " Dr. Smith wrote of the Port Elliott
negotiations,

• 
  "Chief Seattle arose with all the dignity of a senator, who carries the
  responsibilities of a great nation on his shoulders. Placing one hand on the
  Governor's head and slowly pointing heavenward with the index finger of the
  other, he commenced his memorable address in solemn and impressive tones.
  'Yonder sky, that has wept tears of compassion upon our fathers for centuries
  untold, and which today appears changeless and eternal, may change. Today is
  fair. Tomorrow it may be overcast with clouds. My words are like the stars that
  never change. Whatever Seattle says, the Great Chief in Washington can rely upon
  with as much certainty as he can upon the return of the sun of the seasons...
  There was a time when our people covered the land as the waves of a wind-ruffled
  sea cover its shell-paved floor, but that time long since passed away with the
  greatness of the tribes that are now but a mournful memory. I will not dwell on,
  nor mourn over, our untimely decay, nor reproach my paleface brothers with
  hastening it as we too may have been somewhat to blame... To us the ashes of our
  ancestors are sacred and their resting place is hallowed ground. You wander far
  from the graves of your ancestors and seemingly without regret. Your religion
  was written upon tablets of stone by the iron finger of your God so that you
  could not forget. The Red Man could never comprehend nor remember it. Our
  religion is the traditions of our ancestors - the dreams of our old men, given
  them in the sacred hours of the night by the Great Spirit; and the visions of
  our sachems, and is written in the hearts of our people. Your dead cease to love
  you and the land of their nativity as soon as they pass the portals of the tomb
  and wander way beyond the stars. They are soon forgotten and never return. Our
  dead never forget the beautiful world that gave them being. They still love its
  verdant valleys, its murmuring rivers, its magnificent mountains, sequestered
  lakes and verdant lined lakes and bays, and ever yearn in tender, fond affection
  over the lonely hearted living, and often return from the Happy Hunting Ground
  to visit, guide, console and comfort them... And when the last Red Man shall
  have perished, and the memory of my tribe shall have become a myth among the
  White Men, these shores will swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe, and when
  your children's children think themselves alone in the field, the store, the
  shop, upon the highway, or in the silence of the pathless woods, they will not
  be alone. In all the earth there is no place dedicated to solitude. At night
  when the streets of your cities and villages are silent and you think them
  deserted, they will throng with the returning hosts that once filled them and
  still love this beautiful land. The White Man will never be alone. Let him be
  just and deal kindly with my people, for the dead are not powerless. Dead, did I
  say? There is no death, only a change of worlds.'"

 

[billc]

And some more on the speech:

This speech is indeed memorable, and one is left wondering how Dr. Smith managed to translate a lengthy address in the obscure Lushotseed language into such florid Victorian prose, or why he waited 32 years to publish his translation.

Another question is how Seattle, who had been a devout Catholic since 1830, could say something like "Your religion was written upon tablets of stone by the iron finger of your God."

Giving Seattle, and Dr. Smith, the benefit of the doubt on the original Seattle
speech published in the Seattle Sunday Star, there is still the question
of the later Seattle speech, which is reprinted frequently. It bears little
resemblance to Dr. Smith's translation and nobody ever heard of it before 1972,
when it appeared in Environmental Action. In 1974, it was displayed in
the US Pavilion at the Seattle World's Fair. That same year, the entire text
appeared in Northwest Orient Airlines' Passages magazine under the title,
"The Decidedly Unforked Message of Chief Seattle." A Dutch translation appeared
in 1975, followed by a Swedish translation in 1976 and a German translation in
1979. After the World Council of Churches reprinted it in book form, it
saturated the Eastern Hemisphere from Finland to South Africa. It has since
found its way into dozens of languages and is frequently quoted in books and
magazines all over the world.

Where did Environmental Action get
it? According to investigator Rudolf Kaiser, EA received a xeroxed clipping from
the Seattle office of Friends of the Earth, which someone had cut from a
now-defunct Native American tabloid. The tabloid had transcribed it from a tape
of a television show called Home, produced by the Southern Baptist Convention in
1972. The filmscript was written by Texas screenwriter Ted Perry in the winter
of 1970-71, after listening to an Earth Day rendering of Dr. Smith's Seattle
oration read by Professor William Arrowsmith (who poetically enhanced the speech
to remove what Arrowsmith called "the dense patina of 19th century literary
diction and syntax"). Ted Perry picks up the story from there:

"I asked
Professor Arrowsmith (he and I were both teaching at the University of Texas) if
I might use the idea as a basis for the script; he graciously said yes... So I
wrote a speech which was a fiction. I would guess that there were several
sentences which were paraphrases of sentences in Professor Arrowsmith's
translation but the rest was mine. In passing the script along to the Baptists,
I always made clear that the work was mine. And they, of course, knew the script
was original; they would surely not have paid me, as they did, for a speech
which I had merely retyped.

"In presenting them with a script, however, I
made the mistake of using Chief Seattle's name in the body of the text. I don't
remember why this was done; my guess is that it was just a mistake on my part.
In writing a fictional speech I should have used a fictitious name. In any case,
when next I saw the script it was the narration for a film called Home aired on
ABC or NBC-TV in 1972, I believe. I was surprised when the telecast was over,
because there was no 'written by' credit on the film. I was more than surprised;
I was angry. So I called up the producer and he told me that he thought the text
might be more authentic if there were no 'written by' credit
given."

Arrowsmith adds: "Perry tried to insist to his producer for the
film (the Southern Baptist Convention) that the speech was not in any sense a
translation. But they overrode his decision... Hence they talked glibly about a
'letter' to President Pierce... In the course of their work, the Baptists added
still more 'material' to the speech. The bulk of their editions is the
religiosity of their Seattle."

Now that the author, or authors, of
Seattle's famous speech is known, what comes of the myth? In our search for
truth, are we losing sight of something more important? The Seattle speech
captured the imagination of millions of people and has influenced ecological
philosophy and environmental activism for nearly two decades. Bruce Kent,
National Chaplain of Pax Christi in Britain says, it's a whole religious
concept... I think its really a fifth gospel, almost ..."

Ted Perry's
remarkable little piece destroyed the dualism of the sacred and profane; it
united them into a holistic Web of Life. It was a profound statement precisely
the moment western civilization was emotionally ready for it. If we quietly
forget the attribution to Seattle, perhaps we can still retain the tremendous
value of the speech itself.

 

[billc]

More from the article I posted:

Epstein: Industrial progress is the improvement of the human environment through increasing energy and industry. The number one prerequisite of industrial progress is political freedom of the type guaranteed by the Declaration and Constitution. All that is needed for rapid industrial progress is for the government to respect property rights universally; that would enable people to develop the best forms of energy and production without government interference, and to compete on a free market.
As for fiscal responsibility, nothing could be more fiscally responsible than the government having an industrial policy with no subsidies, mandates, handouts, or bailouts — just the protection of individual rights.

 

[billc]

And here is some sense...

PJ Media: How would you advise Tea Partiers and activists of like mind seeking to increase their literacy on energy policy and environmental issues?
Epstein: I would say first and foremost increase your literacy on industrial and environmental philosophy. Most of the political decision-making about energy and industry today is not based on economics or science, but rather bad philosophical ideas about our proper relationship to our environment. In every policy debate, there is a dogmatic obsession with only the negative impacts or possible impacts human beings can have (for example, an oil spill) and a dogmatic ignorance of the radically positive impact that, for example, coal, oil, natural gas, etc. have had on the human environment over the past two centuries. What that points to is that there is a deep-seated belief in our culture that there is something inherently wrong with the human project of transforming nature.

 

[elder999]

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Genesis 1:26.

The land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land. Lev. 25:23-24.

As for you, my flock... Is it not enough for you to feed on good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? Ezekiel 34:17-18.

The earth dries up and withers, the world languished and withers, the exalted of the earth languish. The earth lies under its inhabitants; for they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Isaiah 24:4-6.

I brought you into a fertile land to eat its fruit and rich produce. But you came and defiled my land and you made my inheritance detestable. Jer. 2:7.

And He called him and said to him, "What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward. He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous in much. You cannot serve both God and mammon. Luke 16:2,10,13.

The nations were angry and your wrath has come. The time has come for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great - and for destroying those who destroy the earth. Revelation 11:18.

And my personal favorite, the inarguable:

You shall not pollute the land in which you live... you shall not defile the land in which you live, in which I also dwell.
Numbers 35:33-34

 

[billc]

What do they say about the devil quoting scripture?

 

[billc]

And also from the article:

It could be said that industrial progress is the goal for which the Tea Party ultimately fights. Fiscal responsibility, constitutionally limited government, and free markets are means to this end. The moral imperative is ensuring the capacity to act productively, guided by our own judgment, to shape our environment in pursuit of happiness.
If at any given time in our nation’s history the American people had embraced a philosophy as retarding as that espoused by the green movement, our progress would have halted. Indeed, that’s what’s happening now. The cheapest, most efficient means of production is no longer our national standard. Those hardest hit are the poorest of the poor who depend upon cheap, bountiful energy to both sustain their lives and facilitate their upward mobility.
For this reason, the green movement is not just wrong, but evil. It is anti-life, inherently regressive, and worth opposing with all our political might. Gird yourself with the intellectual ammo available from Epstein’s Center for Industrial Progre

ss.

 

[elder999]

What do they say about the devil quoting verse?

It wasn't "they." 'T'was the Bard:

The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek.” -The Merchant of Venice

The proverb is referring, of course, to Genesis 3, where "the serpent" quotes scripture, and again, in Matthew 4, "Shaitan," quotes scripture tempting Jesus. In both instances, some valuable context is left out-my dad always used to say Text without context is pretext.

In this case, there is no pretext, and no further context is necessary: these are all quotes where the Creator is speaking directly through his prophets on man's treatment of the earth, the land, our home-which, you know, we're supposed to keep clean, not defecate on the kitchen floor and smear it on the walls like some kind of infant in their crib. Trust me on this, billi-the context would do nothing to further your argument,and only further mine: the Bible says we're supposed to take care of the earth, and not pollute it. It says that the earth is the Lord's, and we are its stewards, and should take care of it.

 

[billc]

Of course we do take care of it and as we make more technological progress we are able to keep the environment cleaner and more useful. It is silly to think that progress means making the environment less clean. As we become more experienced handling different types of energy we extract in cleaner and safer ways and get more out of it because of this. Be fruitful and multiply is something else we are commanded to do, and that takes energy. All of the quotes you list say take care of the environment, they don't say don't use it at all, live like the lowest of animals and wallow in natural filth because you aren't allowed to advance beyond mud huts.

 

[elder999]

All of the quotes you list say take care of the environment, they don't say don't use it at all, live like the lowest of animals and wallow in natural filth because you aren't allowed to advance beyond mud huts.

Oh, and on planet Cihak, this is the stated goal of the environmental movement, then? The reason that we have windmills producing electricity, and electric and hybrid vehicles, and solar power, and all of these environmental initiatives that you keep posting against is because they further some "green movement" agenda that would have us all "living like the lowest of animals and wallowing in natural filth" and "not allowing us to advance beyond mud huts," HOW? exactly? :lfao:

Of course we do take care of it and as we make more technological progress we are able to keep the environment cleaner and more useful.

Of course we do.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...b=139datq65&sigi=122ob510n&.crumb=8LlgjmiGosm

 

[JohnEdward]

Elder999 you missed this guy.

 

[elder999]

Elder999 you missed this guy.

Pretty sure that guy was Italian-an actor, playing a character for a public service spot.

Everything I posted was real-actual examples of the fine job of stewardship mankind has over the earth, and the excellent care of the environment that has come from technological process.

But I do miss those public service spots-they sure beat the constant drumbeats for "clean coal."

 

[JohnEdward]

I thought the Green Movement was about being Green....and I am not talking kermit the frog. The green am talking about is making $$$$$$$$$ that is about competing against established industries. The green movement is so we can buy more products from China, like solar panels - which is a fading out technology being replaced by new technology. Is having hybrid cars that run on electricity (completely or with fossil fuel) that is produced by coal (mostly) or nuclear power. Y'all, know stuff like that, it's about rerouting our dollar away from traditional industries, to new ones.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Pretty sure that guy was Italian-an actor, playing a character for a public service spot.

Everything I posted was real-actual examples of the fine job of stewardship mankind has over the earth, and the excellent care of the environment that has come from technological process.

But I do miss those public service spots-they sure beat the constant drumbeats for "clean coal."

Iron Eyes Cody aka Espera Oscar de Corti

 

[JohnEdward]

Everything I posted was real-actual examples of the fine job of stewardship mankind has over the earth, and the excellent care of the environment that has come from technological process.

But I do miss those public service spots-they sure beat the constant drumbeats for "clean coal."

It is unfortunate that you haven't pointed how much industry has changed, and how much improvement there is. Or how many companies large and small are becoming and increasing their involvement in green awareness and being environmental progressives. It is profitable for them to do so. I point out how successful recycling programs are, and post-consumer recycled products are being used in or as new packaging. How landfills are being managed that benefit the environment and the community. How many states and cities are implementing green and environmental programs for their states and cities. I don't know if you have noticed that or not, the country isn't covered in sludge, knee high in garbage, have soot filled skies. Is it a perfect world? No. But the country it ain't as bleak and sliding down to an apocalyptic environmental disaster as you paint it.

Many if not all of the pictures you posted are out dated and are of past events, besides being used for propaganda. And from your post, I would think you might be a Wall Street protester, or supporter as this is one of their concerns because of your posts.

 

[Big Don]

The adage goes

Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door

NOT "Legislate happy-touchy-feely laws and regulations that hurt business and by extension those who work for them.
So called "Green" technology has not progressed to that point, yet.

 

[billc]

Yes, the green movement is about making billionaires out of politicians. Look at all the "green" scandals coming out of this white house.

 

[billc]

Hmmm...I do believe that we clean up our messes, and have been cleaning them up since they have been discovered as problems. For each mess you show, you will see people wading in and cleaning them up, and coming up with new ways to clean them up more safely and quickly than before. The gulf spill would not have been as bad or lasted as long if the environmentalists hadn't pushed drilling so far out into the gulf where spills are harder to deal with. New technology to deal with spills like the leak in the gulf are being worked on by the free market capitalist system. There is money to be made in cleaning up messes and coming up with WORKABLE energy technologies. As people become more advanced and have more wealth, they like to live in clean places. The poorer countries are the countries with the worst environments. China is currently getting rich, they too will decide that pollution needs to be dealt with, and then they will clean up their country as well.