Promotions being pushed on students with expensive testing fees attached

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is something that I brought up on another thread, but rather than sidetrack that thread, I thought I'd start a separate thread.

Scenario: suppose the promotion being given also comes with the student being asked to pay out a large sum of money, say anywhere from three to eight hundred dollars?

Assuming that the student can afford it, is it really appropriate for a master to lay that on a student?

And to clarify, I do not mean a situation where the master says, 'hey, I feel that you are ready to test, but there are association fees of _____ hundred dollars, so whenever you have the resources, let me know,' but a situation of, 'I'm promoting you to ____th degree and the test is on __/__/2010. You'll need _____ hundred dollars.'

Now, I am of the opinion that tests should not come with an additional fee if you are paying monthly dues of more than, say 90 dollars. I realize that some associations do require an association fee after certain grade levels. This is kind of a separate issue.

Twenty bucks for a testing fee to cover the instructor's time, cost of a belt and a certificate, and to throw a bit into the kitty for things that will actually benefit the students (such as equipment or maybe the occasional pizza party for the students is okay with me, and not what I am talking about.

In this scenario, the fee is either a substantial profit over the association fee (say five hundred dollars for a Kukkiwon first dan test with the KKW fee being only about seventy dollars) or the school being independent and charging such fees, then pressuring the students to test, in some cases considerably early.

Seen it happen. Found it frankly disturbing and made me lose a lot of respect for the master who was involved.

Daniel

 

[jks9199]

As I said elsewhere -- a reasonable fee related to the costs related (travel costs for panel members, facility rentals, new belts, etc.) is one thing. But some of the fees I've heard charged are beyond exorbitant.

 

[Thesemindz]

The most I ever paid for a test was one hundred dollars for my black belt test. Considering that the test was on a day the school was closed, it covered all the material I'd learned, and six black belt instructors sat on the Board for over six hours, I think that was a very reasonable price. It was only about two bucks an hour per instructor, I think black belt instructors with one to three decades in the art are worth two bucks an hour.

The instructor should never hold rank hostage or accelerate rank advancement to cash in on the fees. But it costs energy and resources to administer those tests, and there is nothing wrong with compensation plus profit. Customers are free to go elsewhere if they find the business practices of their school unreasonable.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

As far as honor goes? We all really know when we're acting with honor and when we're not. It's our individual responsibility to do the right thing. Some live up to that standard. Some don't.


-Rob

 

[Bruno@MT]

Personally I think that is wrong, it reeks of profiteering and it is not in the interest of the art. And imo the instructor is always secondary to the art.

In my previous system, I paid no testing fee, just the belt.
In Genbukan, the fee is very low (as is the yearly membership).
And you're not testing that often anyway.

 

[baron]

I know of brown belts who left their styles due to outrageous fees for black belt testing. These men were qualified to take the test but the fees required were from $1,000 to $3,000 for them to test for their black belt. This was a number of years ago. They left and went to other styles and were happy they made the change.

Does anyone know when this came about or has there always been testing fee's in the Martial Arts? Or did the fee's come about when the Martial Arts became a business?

I have read of Morihei Ueshiba being instructed to forward a joining fee of three Yen for each new student, to his teacher (Sokaku Takeda). But never read of testing fees.

 

[clfsean]

Last fee I paid for "rank" ... $0
Last fee I charged for "rank" ... $0
Last fee I charged for anything ... $0

Life is good...
Passing on practical knowledge traditionally... priceless.

 

[LiamBoyle]

I'm no martial arts instructor, just a student of martial ways myself. However, I am a father and my son studies TKD at an established area school, and this is an issue I have with that particular school. My son just tested for his orange belt and the fee was $40 (which is not unreasonable in the US). All his belt test fees are $40, and color belt tests happen roughly every two months, but my wife and I were informed by another parent that the fee for his black belt test is going to be $350+ (the fees are $350 as of right now, but I don't see the cost going down in the near future). Now this does include, the black belt uniform, the embroidered belt, the certificate, and the testing itself so I cannot call this fee unreasonable.

Now, I love my son's TKD school, they are great with children, put an exceptional emphasis on self discipline and respect, they try and work with the parent's about any behavior issues the children are having at TKD, school, or home. However, these fees are killing me, and I do feel they are getting pushed on me.

The school only really advertises the cost of their four class "trial" program at $29.95 which does include the dobok, but they kinda "sucker punch" people with not being forthright about other fees and costs. I had to sign a three year contract just to get the monthly cost down to $99 and then there are fees for everything. Now $99/mo for lessons and $40 for testing fees are reasonable for many schools in this day and age, I just wish my son's school had been more forward about mentioning them to my wife and I when we signed the kiddo up. Even a $350 dan testing fee is not in any way excessive but I would have liked the school to tell me ahead of time, not hear it second hand from another parent.

I do think many martial arts schools push testing and testing fees on people without sufficient warning. I don't agree with it. I am also glad my own personal choice of martial art is a system without rank, until I seek instructor certification, and even being a few years away from that point I know what the cost to me is going to be.

 

[jks9199]

I'm no martial arts instructor, just a student of martial ways myself. However, I am a father and my son studies TKD at an established area school, and this is an issue I have with that particular school. My son just tested for his orange belt and the fee was $40 (which is not unreasonable in the US). All his belt test fees are $40, and color belt tests happen roughly every two months, but my wife and I were informed by another parent that the fee for his black belt test is going to be $350+ (the fees are $350 as of right now, but I don't see the cost going down in the near future). Now this does include, the black belt uniform, the embroidered belt, the certificate, and the testing itself so I cannot call this fee unreasonable.

Now, I love my son's TKD school, they are great with children, put an exceptional emphasis on self discipline and respect, they try and work with the parent's about any behavior issues the children are having at TKD, school, or home. However, these fees are killing me, and I do feel they are getting pushed on me.

The school only really advertises the cost of their four class "trial" program at $29.95 which does include the dobok, but they kinda "sucker punch" people with not being forthright about other fees and costs. I had to sign a three year contract just to get the monthly cost down to $99 and then there are fees for everything. Now $99/mo for lessons and $40 for testing fees are reasonable for many schools in this day and age, I just wish my son's school had been more forward about mentioning them to my wife and I when we signed the kiddo up. Even a $350 dan testing fee is not in any way excessive but I would have liked the school to tell me ahead of time, not hear it second hand from another parent.

I do think many martial arts schools push testing and testing fees on people without sufficient warning. I don't agree with it. I am also glad my own personal choice of martial art is a system without rank, until I seek instructor certification, and even being a few years away from that point I know what the cost to me is going to be.

Let me get this straight:

You're paying $99 a month, or $1188 a year in class dues. Plus another $40 every other month, $240 a year, for testing fees. So, you're paying a total of $1428 per year. And I wouldn't be surprised, though you haven't mentioned it, that you had to buy a study guide DVD or pay for special "pre-test seminars" or other fees.

Does the TKD school provide afterschool child care, if you need it? If so, OK, it's probably a bargain. I guess...

 

[LiamBoyle]

Let me get this straight:

You're paying $99 a month, or $1188 a year in class dues. Plus another $40 every other month, $240 a year, for testing fees. So, you're paying a total of $1428 per year. And I wouldn't be surprised, though you haven't mentioned it, that you had to buy a study guide DVD or pay for special "pre-test seminars" or other fees.

Does the TKD school provide afterschool child care, if you need it? If so, OK, it's a bargain. w

The study guide was a printed book that only cost $10 and covers all the material from white to 1st degree black black belt, but yeah, you pretty much nailed it. There are no pre-test seminars or other fees of that nature, but I do feel like I'm getting "bent over w/ a sandpaper c*nd*m," monetarily by the school most days. However, the dojang does offer an after school program that also covers snow and in service days (the dojang actually has its own in house bus service) and an all day summer camp program. Both available for extra fees, of course.

If the other area schools didn't blow chunks my son wouldn't be at the one he is.

 

[jks9199]

The study guide was a printed book that only cost $10 and covers all the material from white to 1st degree black black belt, but yeah, you pretty much nailed it. There are no pre-test seminars or other fees of that nature, but I do feel like I'm getting "bent over w/ a sandpaper c*nd*m," monetarily by the school most days. However, the dojang does offer an after school program that also covers snow and in service days (the dojang actually has its own in house bus service) and an all day summer camp program. Both available for extra fees, of course.

If the other area schools didn't blow chunks my son wouldn't be at the one he is.

In other words -- that mortgage payment isn't even including day care, right?

(You don't want me to get started on the dojang/dojo day care... I'll leave at if it looks like day care, it should meet all the regulations of a day care facility.)

 

[LiamBoyle]

No, the cost isn't including the day care, although this particular dojang is actually licensed by the state and city as a day care facility. (They were quick to point that out to us, we we visited the school before enrolling my son.)

 

[WC_lun]

There is reasonable cost that an instructor will charge for testing to cover cost. Anything above that is just plain wrong, in my opinion. Students pay a tuition fee to learn. They shouldn't have to pay some exhorbinant fee to be able to wear a strip of cloth around thier waist indicating that the instructor is actually doing the job they are paid to do. At a point, it becomes obvious there is much more going on than giving the student an honest product for a fair price. When instructors take advantage of students or thier parents in this manner, it gives us all a bad name.

 

[MJS]

This is something that I brought up on another thread, but rather than sidetrack that thread, I thought I'd start a separate thread.

Scenario: suppose the promotion being given also comes with the student being asked to pay out a large sum of money, say anywhere from three to eight hundred dollars?

Assuming that the student can afford it, is it really appropriate for a master to lay that on a student?

And to clarify, I do not mean a situation where the master says, 'hey, I feel that you are ready to test, but there are association fees of _____ hundred dollars, so whenever you have the resources, let me know,' but a situation of, 'I'm promoting you to ____th degree and the test is on __/__/2010. You'll need _____ hundred dollars.'

Now, I am of the opinion that tests should not come with an additional fee if you are paying monthly dues of more than, say 90 dollars. I realize that some associations do require an association fee after certain grade levels. This is kind of a separate issue.

Twenty bucks for a testing fee to cover the instructor's time, cost of a belt and a certificate, and to throw a bit into the kitty for things that will actually benefit the students (such as equipment or maybe the occasional pizza party for the students is okay with me, and not what I am talking about.

In this scenario, the fee is either a substantial profit over the association fee (say five hundred dollars for a Kukkiwon first dan test with the KKW fee being only about seventy dollars) or the school being independent and charging such fees, then pressuring the students to test, in some cases considerably early.

Seen it happen. Found it frankly disturbing and made me lose a lot of respect for the master who was involved.

Daniel

IMHO, I think that once it starts reaching the hundreds, then its a bit much. No belt costs that much, unless you're having a huge test, ie: a 3 day seminar during which one of the days, you could have a large number of students testing, thus the seminar will probably be held in a large facility, etc., then no test IMO, should warrant a $500 fee.

Sometimes, especially for a BB test, the belt will be fancy, ie: special material, special writing, etc. This is fine and dandy, but I'm fine with a plain BB.

 

[MJS]

The study guide was a printed book that only cost $10 and covers all the material from white to 1st degree black black belt, but yeah, you pretty much nailed it. There are no pre-test seminars or other fees of that nature, but I do feel like I'm getting "bent over w/ a sandpaper c*nd*m," monetarily by the school most days. However, the dojang does offer an after school program that also covers snow and in service days (the dojang actually has its own in house bus service) and an all day summer camp program. Both available for extra fees, of course.

If the other area schools didn't blow chunks my son wouldn't be at the one he is.

IMO, thats exatly whats happening. Whats sad, is that you're probably locked into the contract, and will have to jump thru hoops of fire to get out of it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

IMHO, I think that once it starts reaching the hundreds, then its a bit much. No belt costs that much, unless you're having a huge test, ie: a 3 day seminar during which one of the days, you could have a large number of students testing, thus the seminar will probably be held in a large facility, etc., then no test IMO, should warrant a $500 fee.

Sometimes, especially for a BB test, the belt will be fancy, ie: special material, special writing, etc. This is fine and dandy, but I'm fine with a plain BB.

Nope. One and a half to two hours. Test fees at the studio in question include a new dobok (roughly 50. retail, considerably less wholesale), an embroidered black belt (roughly 50. retail) a certificate, and the time at the school, which at the time, was duirng the school's regular hours of operation. The school teaches more than one art, but only one includes an actual association fee (KKW). Grades in the other arts are in school only. The first dan test is five hundred dollars.

Daniel

 

[jks9199]

Our black belt testing fee (no underbelt fees) is something like $150 or $200. That's the camp fee (they take place during our annual summer camp) and membership in the association.

I could see several hundred for an upper black belt test fee, where you only have a couple of candidates, and have to bring in a testing panel, and have to spread those costs over a small group.

 

[just2kicku]

I have heard of some of the high fees and just can't believe it. My BB test was about $300, that was for the panel, belt and I bought the steaks for the guys on the panel after at the BBQ.

 

[Thesemindz]

In order to operate a full time school, an instructor/owner has to cover their expenses. Beyond that, it is certainly reasonable for that man or women to make enough money to feed their family and provide for their future. There is nothing wrong with making a living teaching combat, especially considering the amount of time and study generally accepted within the community as necessary to be a legitimate school owner.

That aside, I don't doubt that some instructors and schools, some styles, some training methods are easily worth thousands of dollars a year. If you doubt that your school is worth what you're paying, then your instructors are failing to demonstrate its value.

Perhaps this can be discussed with them, and addressed. Karate instructors are only human. They will have off days, and better or worse classes. Bringing your concerns to your instructors may be the best thing you do for everyone's future in the martial arts.

But if that isn't an option, or it doesn't yield some kind of positive results, than you may simply have to move on to a new school.

Personally, I don't agree with irrevocable long term contracts, regular arbitrary fees, or mandatory testing. I think contracts have a place and serve a purpose, but they should be voluntary on both sides.

I am also wary of any school that charges high fees for black belt tests, and offers black belt ranking in around a year. That seems like it would incentivize pushing students towards the high fee levels as quickly as possible; but I haven't trained in those schools, so that may just be prejudice.

If you've never trained, you don't have any standard against which to judge the quality of your new school. I don't think it's safe to sign a long term contract under those circumstances.

Ultimately, an instructor should be offering such excellent classes that his students stay because they want to, not because they're being bullied or financially coerced. Motivation is part of an instructor's job, extortion is something else. In the end, those customers aren't students anyway. They don't come to class. They don't study. They don't care.

350, 500 dollars for a two hour test? That seems like a lot to me, though I can think of Masters who are worth that and more.


-Rob

 

[bluewaveschool]

I don't get paid. I don't charge testing fees, association dues, or anything else. Life is good like that.