Problems of new students

[donald1]

I don't know about your school but at mine its almost impossible to get new students, at my school about at least a good 7 out of 10 quit after the first class. In some way I'm curious about it. Our school has several other schools they teach the same methods and have more students (maybe because they live in a much larger populated area. But that's not the reason why I posted this, -- out of curiosity what are the chances if a new student comes to your class and quites the first day?

 

[Dirty Dog]

What you're describing is really very typical. Just as in so many other area, most of the people who come through your doors for the first time will just be 'kicking the tires', so to speak.
Most will quit after one or two visits, deciding that the program just isn't right for them (for any of a million reasons...).

In my experience, you will see a ton of turnover at the lower ranks. Those who make it past the rank beginner stage will usually stick with it for a while. You will also see a lot who leave after they get their Black Belt, because that belt was their goal. Having reached it, they go on to the next item on their bucket list.

 

[wingchun100]

I got you beat: at my Sifu's school he has a payment plan set up where the more you give him up front, the less each month actually costs. The biggest plan is the one year plan. One of his students paid that...and then never came back. I cannot imagine deciding a martial art is worth sinking THAT much money into...and then disappearing.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I got you beat:

I didn't know it was a competition...

at my Sifu's school he has a payment plan set up where the more you give him up front, the less each month actually costs. The biggest plan is the one year plan. One of his students paid that...and then never came back. I cannot imagine deciding a martial art is worth sinking THAT much money into...and then disappearing.

We're not a commercial school, and we don't use contracts so none of that is an issue. The YMCA charges $40/month for members, $60/month for non-members, and there are scholarships available for those who cannot afford those rates.

From a commercial standpoint, that is one of the arguments in favor of contracts; if someone stops coming, your profit margins go up. At least in the short term.

 

[donald1]

I got you beat: at my Sifu's school he has a payment plan set up where the more you give him up front, the less each month actually costs. The biggest plan is the one year plan. One of his students paid that...and then never came back. I cannot imagine deciding a martial art is worth sinking THAT much money into...and then disappearing.

Your sifu sounds smart, that sounds like a clever idea (by that do you mean paying for part of the next month in advanced or the more months go by the cheaper)
Lucky for me in my school we pay $30 a month usually at a recreational room but sometimes at his place (Mondays and Wednesday 7:30 pm to 9:00pm

 

[skribs]

We have a 2-week introductory price at our school (just over a quarter of the normal monthly tuition, and uniform included in price). Typically we'll see maybe 10% quit after the first day, and another 60-70% quit after the 2-week trial.

Of those that stay, I want to say they usually stick with it. People in the lower belts may drop out suddenly, while people in the higher belts tend to slowly fade out.

If you think the amount of 1st-day-quitters is too high, maybe look at what you could do to encourage repeat visits. Think about:
-An introductory trial period, to at least give them a few weeks to get comfortable instead of just one class
-A new member class, where you maybe go over some of the basics instead of thrusting them in with people who have been there for a few months already (or longer)
-Maybe taking a look at your literature on what can be expected of the school and what is expected of the students. I know hidden prices or surprises are generally turn-offs.

However, I would say it's typical to have a lot of people quit real quick. I want to say probably 80% of the white belts I've seen at my school don't make it to yellow.

 

[wingchun100]

What I mean is this: let's say if you pay monthly, it's $75. But he says, "Pay for the entire year and it comes out cheaper ." So if you pay him $600 for a year, it's like each month is $50 instead of $75.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tshadowchaser]

I would suggest that :
1. any new student first come in and watch 1 or 2 classes before signing up
2. They have a talk with the instructor about why they want to study and what they expect to get out of the class
3. Be told the amount of time ( approximately) that it takes to achieve their goal

 

[K-man]

I reckon if I got ten enquires by phone where they all promise to turn up at a particular time, maybe two or three would show. Once they have trained 50% probably stay. What pisses me off most are the ones who say how great the free classes were, 'just what I want, see you next week' then never show again.
:asian:

 

[wingchun100]

I reckon if I got ten enquires by phone where they all promise to turn up at a particular time, maybe two or three would show. Once they have trained 50% probably stay. What pisses me off most are the ones who say how great the free classes were, 'just what I want, see you next week' then never show again.
:asian:

This kind of reminds me of what Jim Rohn said about network marketing: out of 10 people, if you get 4 to stick then you can make a living at it. But most people don't get 4. Still, the point is it reminds me not to feel bad if I get only 2-3 out of 10. And no school owner should feel bad about that either.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I don't know about your school but at mine its almost impossible to get new students, at my school about at least a good 7 out of 10 quit after the first class. In some way I'm curious about it. Our school has several other schools they teach the same methods and have more students (maybe because they live in a much larger populated area. But that's not the reason why I posted this, -- out of curiosity what are the chances if a new student comes to your class and quites the first day?

Donald

I viewed your profile to see what art you study and then checked your affiliation's site and I see that you are learning Gojo ryu and from the looks of it, it is traditional Gojo ryu. Are you based in Arlington? I'm in Roanoke, up northwest of you.

Just FYI I teach at the Roanoke Rec. center and have been for the past 7 years. I teach American Karate/TKD and Modern Arnis and Kobudo. My American karate/TKD program is my juniors program and I teach both a Junior Modern Arnis program and an adult Modern Arnis program. The Kobudo is taught to my senior students in karate/TKD as part of the program. Classes are 3 times a week for each program and cost is about $80 a month and it is month to month with no contracts. This is not a commercial for my school rather this is to give you context to my answer to see if my program set up is similar to your situation. Anyway in regards to you questions.

If you are paying $30.00 a month for classes 2X a week then you are lucky. From the Texas Gojo ryu Fed. website I viewed, I take you are part of a good program teaching a traditional art, it looked to me that all of the BB instructors listed have been training for a number of years in the art so it's not bad instruction. Therefore the reason why people quit after the first lesson or two can be from a number of reasons, which I'll cover in a sec.

First off 100% of my students don't leave after the first lesson, to earn their 1st belt is about 2 months and I keep generally 95% of them, in the next belt is also a 90% retention rate, in the intermediate ranks is where I see a drop off, but even there I keep 50%, if the make it to the advanced class then I generally keep them. Last year I lost 2 Red belts (1st browns) but kept my advanced class full at 10 students, in July I'll be testing 3-4 Red belts, for 1st black. It takes 4-5 years for 1st dan.

I believe a big difference between our programs is that 90% of my students are kids-teens, not adults. It is not because I'm a super instructor, but teaching kids is different than adults. If your program is largely kids and the are leaving then I believe iot is a different problem but if you are having a hard time getting adults that is a different issue. It is easier to hold onto the kids than it is for adults.

So here are why it can be that the adults aren't staying past the first lesson or two.
1) After the first lesson they believe that what they are going to learn won't be relevant to their needs. I'm not saying that it won't be relative, I'm saying the customer isn't buying it.
2) It could be because they don't like what they see. I mean they might feel intimidated having to wear a gi, they might not like to be training in a class with kids (adults and kids mixed together), they might not like to train with beginners and advanced belts together, they might not like the idea of being taught by a woman or being taught by a man, they might want to learn self defense and all they see is everyone training kata. They might not like being touched by the opposite sex in self defense training. Really the list can be endless.
3) Depending upon how the class is they might come in and be relegated to a junior student to learn from, and they want to learn from the main instructor. This happened to me and I chose not to go to a particular school (and it was a good school), because I had to rotate shifts and during the months I worked nights and had to take day classes I would be taking class from a blue belt, at that time I had been training for close to 10 years and would have been paying $100.00+ a month.
4) Right now, adults have more options to learn martial arts from so it is a harder market to crack and it is more competitive to get that potential student. At a Rec. Center first off the instructor in the public's mind is generally a lower level instructor than a commercial dojo. I mean they look at it as "hey if he was really good why isn't he running his own school?" Then you have Krav maga, BJJ, MMA etc. etc. schools popping up all over the place all competing for the adult student. All of these commercial schools generally charge more, have more advertising (more presence in the public eye), have bigger facilities, more classes, more equipment etc. etc. But they also are seen as more serious, more professional, and therefore a better value to the consumer.

This gets back to teaching kids; in regards to kids the parents are going to take them where it is convenient, flexible, safe, and enjoyable. This is why where I lose the students is in the middle school to high school range because of band, drama, team sports. Completely different reasons than adults.

I hope this helps

 

[Mark Lynn]

I got you beat: at my Sifu's school he has a payment plan set up where the more you give him up front, the less each month actually costs. The biggest plan is the one year plan. One of his students paid that...and then never came back. I cannot imagine deciding a martial art is worth sinking THAT much money into...and then disappearing.

If the student paid with a check, he might have had three days or so to dispute the payment and then got his money back. I know my wife had this happen back in the early 80's where she signed up at a school and it was a high pressure sales gig and she had 3 days by law to cancel that contract. Likewise when we purchased a vehicle back in the 80's we had the same option.

Not sure if it is the same now or even with a credit card however I believe the laws about signing contracts for health clubs, martial arts schools etc. etc. are still on the books and the potential student is still given a grace period.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I reckon if I got ten enquires by phone where they all promise to turn up at a particular time, maybe two or three would show. Once they have trained 50% probably stay. What pisses me off most are the ones who say how great the free classes were, 'just what I want, see you next week' then never show again.
:asian:

Just a suggestion here, maybe there is an issue with your phone sales (business system). I mean maybe you need to call them back the day before/day of the intro class and remind them. Maybe more would show thinking that you are expecting them at that class.

Do you follow up with the potential student after the free lesson?

 

[Mark Lynn]

Just a point of clarification here on my post to Donald where I was saying I have a 100% retention rate for the first month or so.
1) The only advertising that I do is really my website, and the Rec. Center catalog (internal marketing) so I'm not going out having to replace students every month.
2) Some months I get 1-2 students, some none, so my classes stay fairly full but drop off over the summer when parents and kids are vacationing, taking a break etc. etc. Normally I get some new students who are testing the water so to speak during this time and I lose a few who might not come back after the break. Although most of my students come back after the break.
3) Generally the new students who show up, are students that have already signed up for the 1st month at the Rec. Center out of those generally 95% sign up the next month and so on.

I mention this because being in a school like mine I have different needs, different marketing etc. etc. than say a commercial dojo. If I had to take calls, or cold call people then my conversion rates from non student to student would be much different.

 

[WaterGal]

I reckon if I got ten enquires by phone where they all promise to turn up at a particular time, maybe two or three would show. Once they have trained 50% probably stay. What pisses me off most are the ones who say how great the free classes were, 'just what I want, see you next week' then never show again.
:asian:

When they say "just what I want" - that's when you say, "great, how about we go in the office and talk about our program". Try to get them to sign up for something right then, when they feel really excited about your program. Don't wait until they come back next week, because like you say, a lot of them won't. But if they sign up for something, even a short trial period, they'll be more likely to come back.

 

[WaterGal]

We have a 2-week introductory price at our school (just over a quarter of the normal monthly tuition, and uniform included in price). Typically we'll see maybe 10% quit after the first day, and another 60-70% quit after the 2-week trial.

Of those that stay, I want to say they usually stick with it. People in the lower belts may drop out suddenly, while people in the higher belts tend to slowly fade out.

When we started doing a 2-week trial like this, it definitely helped. We probably get 2/3 of people from the trial class to try it and then 2/3 of those people sign up for a membership. (I should probably track this better and get hard numbers at some point.) So that's still about 50% that don't sign up. But the ones that do are more committed, and we've had more than a few times where their spouse or sibling or kid or whatever saw them doing class during the trial and signed up for a membership with them.

ETA: We used to have it be a steep discount from the regular tuition, but found that some people got annoyed at the price "going up" after 2 weeks and didn't want to sign up over that! SSo we changed it just be half the monthly cost and a free uniform, and that's worked better for us.

 

[donald1]

Donald

I viewed your profile to see what art you study and then checked your affiliation's site and I see that you are learning Gojo ryu and from the looks of it, it is traditional Gojo ryu. Are you based in Arlington? I'm in Roanoke, up northwest of you.

Just FYI I teach at the Roanoke Rec. center and have been for the past 7 years. I teach American Karate/TKD and Modern Arnis and Kobudo. My American karate/TKD program is my juniors program and I teach both a Junior Modern Arnis program and an adult Modern Arnis program. The Kobudo is taught to my senior students in karate/TKD as part of the program. Classes are 3 times a week for each program and cost is about $80 a month and it is month to month with no contracts. This is not a commercial for my school rather this is to give you context to my answer to see if my program set up is similar to your situation. Anyway in regards to you questions.

If you are paying $30.00 a month for classes 2X a week then you are lucky. From the Texas Gojo ryu Fed. website I viewed, I take you are part of a good program teaching a traditional art, it looked to me that all of the BB instructors listed have been training for a number of years in the art so it's not bad instruction. Therefore the reason why people quit after the first lesson or two can be from a number of reasons, which I'll cover in a sec.

First off 100% of my students don't leave after the first lesson, to earn their 1st belt is about 2 months and I keep generally 95% of them, in the next belt is also a 90% retention rate, in the intermediate ranks is where I see a drop off, but even there I keep 50%, if the make it to the advanced class then I generally keep them. Last year I lost 2 Red belts (1st browns) but kept my advanced class full at 10 students, in July I'll be testing 3-4 Red belts, for 1st black. It takes 4-5 years for 1st dan.

I believe a big difference between our programs is that 90% of my students are kids-teens, not adults. It is not because I'm a super instructor, but teaching kids is different than adults. If your program is largely kids and the are leaving then I believe iot is a different problem but if you are having a hard time getting adults that is a different issue. It is easier to hold onto the kids than it is for adults.

So here are why it can be that the adults aren't staying past the first lesson or two.
1) After the first lesson they believe that what they are going to learn won't be relevant to their needs. I'm not saying that it won't be relative, I'm saying the customer isn't buying it.
2) It could be because they don't like what they see. I mean they might feel intimidated having to wear a gi, they might not like to be training in a class with kids (adults and kids mixed together), they might not like to train with beginners and advanced belts together, they might not like the idea of being taught by a woman or being taught by a man, they might want to learn self defense and all they see is everyone training kata. They might not like being touched by the opposite sex in self defense training. Really the list can be endless.
3) Depending upon how the class is they might come in and be relegated to a junior student to learn from, and they want to learn from the main instructor. This happened to me and I chose not to go to a particular school (and it was a good school), because I had to rotate shifts and during the months I worked nights and had to take day classes I would be taking class from a blue belt, at that time I had been training for close to 10 years and would have been paying $100.00+ a month.
4) Right now, adults have more options to learn martial arts from so it is a harder market to crack and it is more competitive to get that potential student. At a Rec. Center first off the instructor in the public's mind is generally a lower level instructor than a commercial dojo. I mean they look at it as "hey if he was really good why isn't he running his own school?" Then you have Krav maga, BJJ, MMA etc. etc. schools popping up all over the place all competing for the adult student. All of these commercial schools generally charge more, have more advertising (more presence in the public eye), have bigger facilities, more classes, more equipment etc. etc. But they also are seen as more serious, more professional, and therefore a better value to the consumer.

This gets back to teaching kids; in regards to kids the parents are going to take them where it is convenient, flexible, safe, and enjoyable. This is why where I lose the students is in the middle school to high school range because of band, drama, team sports. Completely different reasons than adults.

I hope this helps

I don't know where Arlington is, I'm pretty sure it's near Austin or Dallas. I go mart Texas (a small unimportant town) our website wwwmtogkfederation. Webs. com

I agree with you on the child/adult difference. In my school there's three locations i know of one in Mart, Dallas, and Austin. I know the difference well (I'm not sure how to phrase it in words but) from children to junior up to adults there are differences you would natural practice with them different, teach them different and different advantages/disadvantages

Those seem like important factors yes that is probably the most part

 

[K-man]

Just a suggestion here, maybe there is an issue with your phone sales (business system). I mean maybe you need to call them back the day before/day of the intro class and remind them. Maybe more would show thinking that you are expecting them at that class.

Do you follow up with the potential student after the free lesson?

Firstly my school is not a business. It is a not-for-profit arrangement. However it would be good to make enough to cover the overheads. But, that's another story.

I don't teach children and I don't have contracts. (FWIW, I refuse to sign a contract for my training.) I don't want people who don't want to be with me to be trapped in a contract. My friend with whom I share the dojo has contracts and he still has loss of students even though he gets the fees until they formally cancel.

I don't think there is a problem with the phone sell. I describe fully the type of training we do. Our training is not what people think is 'real' karate, but a few others turn round and say that's what attracted them in the first place. I think it could be a politeness thing where people are inclined to say what you would like to hear. Personally, I would prefer them to say "thank you, I'll consider it", or "thank you, it's not quite what I had in mind" than "thank you, I'll see you Tuesday".

Most times people calling don't have a displayed number on their phone. So you can't follow up on the phone call unless you take details which to be honest, I don't want to do. If they don't want to turn up, a follow up call won't make much difference.

As to free training ... I give everyone two weeks free. Even if they want to pay after the first lesson, I don't take their money. I insist they save that decision until they have a real feel for what I teach.

Same thing after the free lessons. If they don't come back, they don't come back. In every instance I have called they have an excuse, "the fees a bit high", "we are about to shift house", "I have to work different hours" etc. Again, if someone is genuinely strapped for cash I will teach them free until they can pay.

From talking around to friends with schools, it seems to be a problem whatever systems you have in place. Those with big commercial schools obviously factor 'churn' into their business model.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

When they say "just what I want" - that's when you say, "great, how about we go in the office and talk about our program". Try to get them to sign up for something right then, when they feel really excited about your program. Don't wait until they come back next week, because like you say, a lot of them won't. But if they sign up for something, even a short trial period, they'll be more likely to come back.

I don't 'sign up' my students. After the trial period they pay up at the next lesson an annual membership fee and tuition for the next quarter (pro rata, of course). Once they pay up and start very few leave.

When we started doing a 2-week trial like this, it definitely helped. We probably get 2/3 of people from the trial class to try it and then 2/3 of those people sign up for a membership. (I should probably track this better and get hard numbers at some point.) So that's still about 50% that don't sign up. But the ones that do are more committed, and we've had more than a few times where their spouse or sibling or kid or whatever saw them doing class during the trial and signed up for a membership with them.


ETA: We used to have it be a steep discount from the regular tuition, but found that some people got annoyed at the price "going up" after 2 weeks and didn't want to sign up over that! SSo we changed it just be half the monthly cost and a free uniform, and that's worked better for us.

My numbers probably aren't much different. 2/3 and 2/3 is just over 50% retention. 25% of my phone enquires put feet on the ground and more than 50% of them stay. I'm happy with the retention rate once they trial with us, just amused by the people who say they'll be back after the trial and don't show. My problem is in generating the enquiries in the first place, and I'm a bit lazy when it comes to door knocking. If my living depended on it I would obviously put more effort into generating the numbers.
:asian:

 

[WaterGal]

I've found that a reminder call before the trial class is actually really useful to the potential student as well as you, since quite a few people just plain forget what day/time they scheduled to come in, or something comes up last minute and they need to reschedule. Most people are fine with giving you their name and phone # for that reason.

But after the class or trial, it doesn't do as much. Most people don't forget to come back and sign up if they're planning to. I'll give them one follow-up call and that's it, unless they ask me to call them back later.

Also, no offense intended, but I think it's real easy to say that you're against using contracts when your living doesn't depend on having your students pay you consistently.