Predator Reintroduction

[Makalakumu]

I posted this on another thread and in order not to hi-jack the whole thing, I wanted to spin off a new topic.

In the west, in areas where wolves are not favored, mountain lions reign. I saw a mountain lion on a hunt in Montana once. My uncle's dogs treed the beast and we road our horses well clear. The cat that I saw was about as big as the one in the pic. Watching is sit in the tree was like looking at one giant coiled muscle. I couldn't take my eyes off it and I could feel my horse tense up. Then the thing leaped. Or, I should say, took off like a rocket. It cleared at least 50 feet with that one jump and disappeared so fast that it seemed like a dream.

Mountain lions hunt by hitting their prey from behind. That 50 foot leap, done by a 200 + lbs cat usually breaks the neck of anything it hits. If the prey is still struggling, the cat will literally tear it apart.

In Boulder Colorado, a town where a friend of mine lives, the environmentalists worked hard to establish "green" areas around the city. There are trails everywhere and it truly is a beautiful place to live. For a few years, it was great fun. Then, these "green" areas attracted wildlife…and following the wildlife, came the mountain lions. Runners and bikers began to disappear and reappear as dismembered corpses. Some animals because so audacious as to grab children right in front of their parents...

Near my home, mountain lions are being reintroduced...or are reintroducing themselves. There are deer everywhere, so there is a lot of food. Yet, I think that people need to be clear about the dangers of some of these animals. Travel in pairs. Keep your kids close. Carry two guns in each group. Two horses were killed on a ranch this summer by mountain lions...They are here to stay.

Mountain Lions are not Wolves. Wolf attacks on humans are extremely rare. Yet, I am still wary. I was ice fishing lake trout on Lake Saganaga a few years ago and I watched a deer tear out onto the ice. A large pack of wolves was in hot pursuit. There wasn't much snow, so the deer out ran the pack, barely. So here I am, I've got three fish in front of me. I've got their scent all over. And there are twenty hungry, frustrated, wolves walking in my direction. I got up, kicked the fish in three directions away from me, and backed away - slipping the safety off my gun. The wolves grabbed the fish and disappeared. If they had wanted to take me, there would have been nothing I could do.

Our "nature" myths have been propagated for a long time now. "Walden" is not a "natural" forest.

Question - What do you think about predator reintroduction?

 

[TonyM.]

Wolves are much maligned. Predator reintroduction is a good thing. Something has to eat all those starving deer in the sierra madre.

 

[The Kai]

Part of any land usage is being responsible. Preditors are part of the cycle of nature-whereas humans (with thier attenant ranchs, and roads are not). Having a wildereness with out the hunters will lead to a unbalanced system. Nature is not nor does it need to be made safe
Todd

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Seems like a pretty broad question to ask. In light of the mountain lion subject, I think your examples illustrate how things need to be planned out far in advance, and with a lot of depth. I'm surprised people weren't aware that reintroducing human-free areas (kind of a contradictory phrase there, ain't it?) where ecosystems could develop would involve the appearance of the not-so-cuddly side of nature.

 

[Makalakumu]

Nature is not nor does it need to be made safe.

I 100% agree with this statement. I would go further. People should expect nature not to be safe.

Respect is a key word. There is no other environment that we live in where natural consequences are so much a part of every day life. There is no room for arrogence, hot dogging, or cuddly myths.

With that being said...about wolves. I've had three encounters with wolves in my life. One, I've described above. In another, I had to stop my truck so a pack could cross the road. Lastly, when I was a young boy, I was on a backpacking trip to Isle Royale. I had an intestinal bug so I was stopping on the trail every half mile to relieve myself. I crossed a ridge, felt the urge and went off trail. So, there I am, with my *** hanging over a log and my pants around my ankles and lo and behold, a lone wolf lopes up within twenty feet. Thank god my pants were already down, that animal was huge! I think back and I know that animal was pushing 120 lbs...that is about as big as a St. Bernard, except in this case, there ain't an ounce of fat on him. A wolf can generate up to 1500 psi with its bite and this one had a particularly large head. In the end, it eventually walked away.

Incidence of attack on humans is rare. Yet, it's good keep in mind, these things are wild animals. If they become used to humans or for whatever reason learn that they can get food from humans, they will attack. They are just like any other large meat eating animal in that respect.

A couple of problems...In my city, we have a huge overpopulation of deer (and I think that this is reciprocated elsewhere). There are also lots of wild areas around here. Reintroduction anywhere within a 100 miles would draw predators right into the city during hard times. And during good times, the deer would flourish and there would be no "natural" check. In my opinion, human hunters are probably the best solution to this situation.

upnorthkyosa

 

[MA-Caver]

Reintroduction of predators to their original habitat is dicey at best. Here in Utah we still have bears within five to ten miles of houses. One afternoon a friend whose parents had a house on one of the "benches" we spied (using binoculars) two large black dots along the side of the mountain. They could be nothing but bears.
In another part of the state, I was hiking back down a mountain gulley/trail in the dark from a particularly long, hard caving trip I was about 50-60 yards ahead of the group, stopped to light up a smoke and the hairs on the back of my neck went up. I looked around and utilized my headlamp for a quick search around but saw nothing, but something was there. When my caving friends and I reached our vehicles some two miles away there was animated talk about the bears they saw. "You guys saw bears?" I asked and they all affirmed that there were two of them just off the main trail. Had those animals decided to attack I'd been in trouble.

True, wolf attacks on humans are exceedingly rare. Why? Because we've relocated these animals to far flung places. Only in recent years have we've brought these animals to do what nature intended for them to do. Control deer (and other natural preys) population. Yellowstone National Park and the town of West Yellowstone (nice place to visit) and Jackson Hole Wyoming have wolves roaming free and in packs not too far from town limits. Still so far no occurrances reported. But it's ineviatable to say the least. My only encounter was with one that was being rehabilitated by a good friend of mine for re-introduction.

Several friends of mine have reported encounters with Mountain Lions. I myself have yet to been honored by nature for such an encounter, except for spoor and tracks. Of the three I'd say that lions are probably the highest danger to humans who go into the wilderness/mountains.

Predatory animals are also territorial animals. They have to be. Stake out a claim for an area that contains enough food to sustain them and their offspring (if any). If memory serves these "territories" can encompass hundreds of square miles and they'll fiercely defend those territories from others of their own kind and other predators. Man, is one of those predators, thus the reports of attacks on humans by lions, bears and wolves... (oh my! ) They'll make no distinction between a hunter looking for deer and a family on a weekend camping trip. If they feel threatened, startled or are starved for some reason or the opportunity for an easy meal (i.e. a small child) then an attack is likely to occur. What happens then? The attacking animal is hunted down by authorities and either killed or re-located. 99% of the time the animal is just killed outright. Good reason too because for some reason once a predatory animal gets a taste of human blood they hunt no-other instead of just adding it to it's list of things to eat. We must be pretty tasty.

Part of us wants to see nature restored to it's natural balance because we are learning our place on this planet. But that one other part of us that fears the dark, unknown places like the deep woods and wilderness areas says make this place safe so I can enjoy it properly.
If we, as society decide to re-introduce predatory animals then we must accept the re-introduction of the risks that are involved. I go hiking into the mountains/canyons twice or three times a month in all seasons. I am aware of all the risks that are there once I step outside the boundries of civilization. Most of the places I go to are too close or heavily trafficked by humans to have an elevated concern for (large) predators. Other places I go to are miles away from the nearest building/human settlement, :idunno: It's where the good caves are at man. My personal sense of awareness is jacked up and I go armed with at least a good sized knife. Better than nothing I think.

We've already know how panicky people are. If a child were attacked (not even necessarily killed) by a mountain lion not only would people go on a campaign to wipe out every lion in a fifty mile radius but land sharks (read: lawyers) would have a field day in hunting down those responsible for re-introduction and lawsuits galore.
Can man and nature co-exist today? We did fine back in the 17-1800's. Pioneer families knew that they lived in areas ripe with "dangerous" animals. They accepted the risks to themselves and to their children. They lived smart, they were wary. Take a family wanting a "unique experience" of backpacking a mile or two to a nice campsite and "roughing it." Totally citified kinda folks and just concentrating more on the "clean mountain air and the unspoiled beauty of nature around them... isn't this great kids?" of which one of them might look up from their game-boy and nod "yeah dad, it's cool" then turn their focus back to the game. Stereotype yes, but I think an apt. one.
Would these folks even be up there with their young-un's if they knew that lions, bears and wolves were up there. Would they even be concerned at all, or be ignorant enough to think that they're not that close by or not even in the re-introduction area(s). Would the guy even know to make sure that his wife wasn't menstruating so that her scent won't even attract predatory animals? Or that the kids aren't going to wander off.
All kinds of risks, are we ready to take them (again?). Good question.
I personally want to see reintroduction. I'm a "tree-hugger" and would love to see Nature restored to it's original balance and harmony, but realistically it's not going to happen. We're everywhere.

I asked my room-mate (who's an avid outdoorsman and caver like I am) his opinion of "predatory re-introduction"... his reply... apt. "It'll just prolong their extinction".

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Whoops, I replied in the other thread.

I think predator reintroduction is important for trying to preserve natural ecosystems, which, in a ridiculous way, are one of the most important parts of our nation that are totally taken for granted by most people - and by the folks who chart our economic successes.

MACaver - your friend's quote made me sad, and angry. Apathy and fatalism are comfortable places to rest, but I don't want to work towards the day that kids are seeing *even more* animals only in films, or in artists' reproductions in books. I don't want people to dreamily recall the time their grandparent told them about seeing a wolf.

Yes, predators (like man) are scary.

It can be done, I think. In some cases, I wish it would.

On a non-environmental side of it, it is good to know there are still some things on this planet (sharks; the flu; lions; volcanos) that can scare people. I don't want people to live in fear, obviously - but a little humility about our place is a good thing.

 

[rmcrobertson]

When I go up in the mountains near my house, I carry all the usuals--chains, water, flashlights/spare batteries, emerg. kit., first aid, good boots, thermals, spare clothers, hat, mittens, space foood, water filter, map, yadayada...the usuals for anybody in the mountains with a grain of sense.

And, a good belt knife, pepper spray, and a couple of walking poles. And I make noise when I walk. There're bears, cats and snakes up there, and coyotes, and deer, and bighorn sheep, and (ick!) people.

I like the idea that there's stuff around that I need to be wary of. It's far more dangerous doing the 20-minute drive than it is being in the mountains, really...and it's a good thing to have your wits about you, lions and tigers and bears or not.

I'm willing to pay with the odd poodle or adult fool for predators. Nature isn't sweet little bunnies, because left alone, the sweet little bunnies would eat everything, get some plague, and be all stinky.

In other words, I'm in favor because human arrogance and ignorance annoys me. We're way too short-sighted, and way too greedy, and way too spoiled by the fantasy of unlimited resources. Oh yes--and way too ignorant of how reality works. And oh yes--way to willing to sacrifice what's beautiful for a strip mall.

And by the way--when I'm King, your government will NOT be repeatedly rebuilding: a) your summer home in Malibu or Laguna Beach because you insist on having it in some sort of natural spillway; b) your cabin or home in woods that are prone to fire, where you moved because developers and your lawyers blocked the state's ability to keep you out of there with rational planning measures; c) your home, business, etc. right on the beach in hurricane zones; d) your cantilevered, ultra-modern, outsized architectural horror that you got built right on the edge of an unstable hillside with your profits from looting your company and sticking it to working people.

Nope. At most, one go-round--then you're out on the street, and the wolves can have a go.

 

[MA-Caver]

MACaver - your friend's quote made me sad, and angry. Apathy and fatalism are comfortable places to rest, but I don't want to work towards the day that kids are seeing *even more* animals only in films, or in artists' reproductions in books. I don't want people to dreamily recall the time their grandparent told them about seeing a wolf.

Well, I see the inappropriateness of the response, but understand it was in sarcasm and realistic. He's just an avid nature lover as I am and is one of the leaders of a summer-long boyscout camp each year, they teach conservation and wilderness preservation and all of that. It seems a callous remark but it was more tongue in cheek because when you look at the long term, these animals and basically all animals are headed for some type of extiction or another. History shows that for as long as man moves outward from his surroundings nature suffers. Predatory animals are usually the first to go because they are a "danger" to the people moving into that area. If a person is attacked by a predator now-a-days the animal is usually killed outright. A rattlesnake is sometimes killed on the spot though it hasn't bitten anyone.
How long will animals last under conditions like these. The human population is growing and only an apocalypstic type war is going to downsize it anytime soon... guess what else suffers such an event? Right, nature. But our population is growing and we're going to want more land to spread out and thus anything that is a threat to us or our children "who have a right to grow up safe" will either be moved or wiped out.
Very sad and at this point in juncture ineviatable.

And, a good belt knife, pepper spray, and a couple of walking poles. And I make noise when I walk. There're bears, cats and snakes up there, and coyotes, and deer, and bighorn sheep, and (ick!) people.

Robert, just FYI (in case you didn't know) ... all snakes, are deaf so making a lot of noise won't do any good. But it is a good tactic for those dangerous animals that CAN hear.

 

[rmcrobertson]

In the first place, I had bears in mind. In the second place, some heavy footfalls...dragging feet occasionally....breaking a stick or two as you walk...watching where you put your feet (and hands)...snaky stuff, eh?

Anything, though, so folks don't walk around like they owned the joint. Even so, it turns out that the San Bernardinos near my house collect a few fools for mulch every year...

 

[Makalakumu]

On one hand, I feel like predator reintroduction is a great thing. What better way to stop people from jackassing their way through the woods! A little fear of critters feasting on you does wonders for one's respect of the nature.

Another good thing is that we'd finally have a natural way to weed some stupidity out of the gene pool. Those darn natural consequences again...

Yet, on a more serious level, the landscape has changed so much, predator reintroduction might not work ecologically. There are few wildlife corridors anymore and there are even fewer places around without people. This will pose a major problem because the nature of a predator and its place in the food chain will naturally put it into direct conflict/competition with humans.

Unfortunately, this crossing of paths has proven to a perfect recipe for extinction...

Therefore, anywhere predators are reintroduced is going to be extremely situational. One must be sure that they will survive and the long term consequences must be analyzed. Yeah, its a sad state, but its reality.

upnorthkyosa

PS - Zip your sleeping bags up at night. I got up to take a leak one night and came back to an "occupied" sleeping bag. I grabbed the toe of the bag and gave it a flip and out came a very pissed off rattlesnake.

 

[kenpo tiger]

PS - Zip your sleeping bags up at night. I got up to take a leak one night and came back to an "occupied" sleeping bag. I grabbed the toe of the bag and gave it a flip and out came a very pissed off rattlesnake.

Okay, you win. Mine was just a sleepy raccoon with nice sharp claws. Amazing how much stuffing one lil ole sleeping bag had.

As I mentioned elsewhere, we have a growing deer problem where I live and in the region in general. New Jersey has black bears wandering into people's yards and homes. The occasional mountain lion has been reported. Heck, they took a tiger out of an apartment in the Bronx (no relation, thank you -- he was Bengal, I'm Siberian...)

Yes, we're encroaching on their space. No, the vacation homes of which *one* spoke aren't appropriate in some places, but there are natural forces which sometimes deal with them, too -- the recent mudslides, forest fires, and so on.

Is there a solution? Do we *go Darwin* on these creatures and reintroduce their natural predators or do we help things along with planned hunting?

And what about the Canadian geese which seem to multiply as we speak?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Here in Indiana we have coyotes, who have naturally spread their range from the southwest.

They're beautiful animals, but they kill cats and dogs. Eventually, I suspect, they'll kill an unattended child. Should they be shot on sight? No. We have packs of wild dogs that are far more dangerous and who kill somebody about every ten years...those should be shot. With coyotes...who live here on the fringes of the town, if not right in it (along with deer), we need to educate the public as to the dangers of children playing unattended.

As for mountain lions...we'll see. They're far more aggressive, from what I've heard. Around here we have wildcats, but they're extremely shy. Rumors abound there is a cougar roaming the woods north of here. I doubt it.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Makalakumu]

Dealing with predators is all about preparation and common sense.

A few general rules...
1. Travel in pairs.
2. Carry something to defend yourself.
3. Watch and listen closely.
4. Keep your children close.
5. Make noise.

If a predator is actually hunting you, it won't matter. No mater how much time you spend in the woods, it isn't enough to compete with that kind of evolutionary firepower. Thankfully, being hunted is exceedingly rare (unless you are talking about polar bears). With most attacks on humans being misunderstandings where the root is either curiosity, fear, or some other instinctual reason.

People should educate themselves of the type of predators in whatever particular area one is visiting. Dealing with different species varies. For instance, near my home, black bears are dealt with banging pots, screaming and throwing rocks (now if that isn't indicative of our evolution, I don't know what is ). If one were to react this way with a grizzly bear, they'd only piss it off.

There are some other issues regarding predator reintroduction, other then safety, that would snarl any attempts. Mainly, predator depredation on livestock. What do people think about this issue?

 

[kenpo tiger]

UpNorthKyosa,

As a hunter, how would you handle it? As you know, I'm not a hunter, nor do I ever intend to harm an animal intentionally. I'm not so sure that tipping the evolutionary scales in any particular area is a smart thing to do, either, since it could possibly lead to more of the same, just a different set of animals. KT

 

[Makalakumu]

UpNorthKyosa,

As a hunter, how would you handle it? As you know, I'm not a hunter, nor do I ever intend to harm an animal intentionally. I'm not so sure that tipping the evolutionary scales in any particular area is a smart thing to do, either, since it could possibly lead to more of the same, just a different set of animals. KT

When I was a kid, there were hardly any deer. I could go hunting actually come back empty handed. I remember when seeing a deer could be a special treat! I think that this reflects an environment that is more "natural" in that there wasn't an over abundance of food and, consequently, an over abundance of animals to eat that surplus.

Now it is different. There are deer everywhere. Everytime I go, I am able to take my pick of the lot. And then, when I process the meat, the normally lean venison is sometimes marbled like beef. Predators might bring populations down and I would be okay with that. Yet, I think the problem with deer goes beyond having a lack of predators.

 

[Adept]

Robert, just FYI (in case you didn't know) ... all snakes, are deaf so making a lot of noise won't do any good. But it is a good tactic for those dangerous animals that CAN hear.

Snakes, while they don't have ears as such, are very sensitive to ground vibrations. They will 'hear' you coming if you walk along with an average gait.

 

[Adept]

PS - Zip your sleeping bags up at night. I got up to take a leak one night and came back to an "occupied" sleeping bag. I grabbed the toe of the bag and gave it a flip and out came a very pissed off rattlesnake.

Oh the horror stories...

I've encountered lots of extremely dangerous snakes in some very obscure places. Like under an esky, in sleeping bags, underneath tents (!), and even in canoes. And the spiders, and the scorpions...

Then we get the lovely little beasties that like to live in and around your homes, like the sydney funnelweb spider who make a habit of hiding in your shoes, or the redback spider who likes to live under the toilet seat, and can cause serious illnes or death. Of course, there is the ever present huntsman spider who, while mostly harmless, likes to freak people out. I've woken up to these critters (big ones, too) crawling across my face in the night, or flipped down the sun guard in the car to have one drop in my lap, or had to calm frantic passengers as one crawls across the inside of the car roof. Nothing like the feeling of a 8" spider hanging off the roof only a few inches from your head...

Of course if you want to go swimming you have to deal with the blue ringed octopus which can kill you in three minutes or the stonefish which can kill you in seconds. This is, of course, without mentioning the box jellyfish which is about as lethal as they come, or the ubiqitous great white shark, which needs no link.

 

[Adept]

The problem we have here in Australia is that many of the animals that are now exploding in terms of poulation are themselves introduced. They have never had any native predators here. We tried to introduce a predator once, the cane toad, with disastrous results. We have populations of goats, pigs, rabbits, deer, sheep, buffalo and foxes, to mention just a few, that have no natural predators.

 

[Lisa]

Oh the horror stories...

I've encountered lots of extremely dangerous snakes in some very obscure places. Like under an esky, in sleeping bags, underneath tents (!), and even in canoes. And the spiders, and the scorpions...

Then we get the lovely little beasties that like to live in and around your homes, like the sydney funnelweb spider who make a habit of hiding in your shoes, or the redback spider who likes to live under the toilet seat, and can cause serious illnes or death. Of course, there is the ever present huntsman spider who, while mostly harmless, likes to freak people out. I've woken up to these critters (big ones, too) crawling across my face in the night, or flipped down the sun guard in the car to have one drop in my lap, or had to calm frantic passengers as one crawls across the inside of the car roof. Nothing like the feeling of a 8" spider hanging off the roof only a few inches from your head...

Of course if you want to go swimming you have to deal with the blue ringed octopus which can kill you in three minutes or the stonefish which can kill you in seconds. This is, of course, without mentioning the box jellyfish which is about as lethal as they come, or the ubiqitous great white shark, which needs no link.

You know... before I read your post, Australia was the one place I wanted to see more then anything else.

I will be thinking of other vacationing spots now :uhohh:.

Ummm.. you don't work for Tourism Australia obviously, right Adept?