Practicing some kata
- Thread starter Guy Preston
- Start date
We are glad you made the trip back to MT, you had much to offer with your previous input. Welcome back.........
Last edited:
Neat; can you tell us a little about the clip?
OP
Guy Preston
Orange Belt
- Thread Starter
- #4
No problem, we were filming some practice just to capture our new dojo location really... I usually post clips up on YouTube - was having a read through MT last night and thought I'd share it...
The first clip is part of a kata called Seuigama from Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, the second is part of a kata called Yumi Otoshi from Shinden Tatara Ryu, and the last Kasumi Dori from Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu.
These were all learned as part of the Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei system.
I have to point out, in the first clip my hand looks dead as I throw, it should be alive, this was something I was working on as hadn't practiced these in a while...
Thanks... but can you describe the throw a bit? I'm not asking for a technical breakdown of how to do it, but maybe the nature of attack it's defending agiains
OP
Guy Preston
Orange Belt
- Thread Starter
- #6
The first kata is defending from a grip on the lapel, with a punch, the second from 2 straight punches and the last is suwari lapel grab and punch
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi Guy,
Nice. The first one looks closer to how I've learnt Koshi Nage Gama/Gakari, Seiogama/gakari is more of an small Oni Kudaki into a Seionage against a single punch. Yumi Otoshi is pretty much how we do it, but it's labelled as Kukishinden Ryu (Kijin Chosui Ryu Kukishin Ryu) Dakentaijutsu, rather than Shinden Tatara Ryu (there's reasons for the different system names, of course...), and Kasumi Dori is very much how I see it done in the Genbukan (of course!). The movement and angling is a bit different for us... both are lots of (pain) fun, though!
If you don't mind, I wouldn't mind trying to answer JKS's question here as well.
To explain a bit about the way kata work in these systems, it's not about the throw, or even the attack it's defending against. It's really about an application of the riai (combative principles), ma-ai (distancing), and hyoshi (timing) of the particular Ryu-ha (school) the kata are teaching. With regards to the kata of Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu (the first and third kata), they are teaching Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu's concepts first and foremost... with the Kukishin/Kijin Chosui/Shinden Tatara Ryu kata (the second one) doing the same with it's concepts.
So, when it comes to describing the throw (I'm assuming you're meaning the throw in the first kata), it's basically a variation on a Koshi Nage (hip throw), performed to the side, combined with a method of kuzushi (unbalancing) applied by lifting one elbow and pulling out and down on the other... but, as that's not the important part, it's fine saying what is (mechanically) happening. What's more important (and something that comes from the training of it, rather than being necessarily obvious in the watching of an isolated example) is the particular way the throw is moved into... how do you step, and when? How do you cover any potential continued attacks? How do you steal the opponent's balance, and keep it away from them until you complete the throw? Where do you throw them? Ideally, all of these should be in line with the Ryu's teachings... different systems teach such things differently. In fact, if we compare the Takagi kata with the Kukishin/Shinden Tatara one that follows it, each of the answers to those questions are slightly, or greatly, different. It's not that the throws are terribly different, it's that everything surrounding them is... to the point that "describing the throw" can be done in intimate detail, and be completely irrelevant.
This is where people (including the membership of some of the systems that teach such methods) don't always get the difference between kata and mechanical drills, or techniques. Kata really don't have much to do with mechanical teachings... such things should be taken care of before kata are learnt. They are, instead, ways of embodying the principles of a martial system using the mechanics. Even the attack it's defending against is pretty much irrelevant (don't get me wrong, it's important, and needs to be correct, but it's a symbolic representation of what the kata is teaching) - the attack is really just a way of giving context (and, in a number of cases, handles) for the technique. And, even there, that context/lesson is particular to the Ryu itself.... Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu tends towards what might be considered actual "attacks" (strikes, attempted chokes, throws etc), as a large part of the approach there is to interrupt an opponents rhythm (attack), suppress their ability to continue the attack, and finish by restraining them (take and dominate control). In a way, I kinda think of it like wrapping someone up in a heavy blanket... you smother them as they attack so they can't continue, then use the blanket to stop them being able to even move. Conversely, Kukishinden Ryu/Shinden Tatara Ryu dominantly has long sequences of striking and kicking attacks (punch, punch, kick, kick, punch etc), and the overall approach is to find the opponents rhythm, interrupt it with strikes/controlling grabs, then to unbalance the top half of the body, followed by the bottom half to takedown/throw. There really isn't much in the way of restraint, as many of the throws are directed with a lot of force towards the ground, aiming to have them do a lot of damage, rather than work into a controlling position. Then again, you have other arts such as Shinden Fudo Ryu (Ju)Taijutsu, where the majority of the system doesn't really feature an "attacking" opponent... the majority of actions the attacking partner uses are grabs of various forms, and the art teaches how to move/manipulate the opponent so that you can apply a throw or joint lock/control. The idea is that, if you find yourself in a grapple at any point, no matter how the opponent holds you, you can move from there to apply a technique... but there's no need to look at moving against attacks, as the mentality is about being the one in control from the get-go. You don't even let the opponent get the time to try to move in and throw/lock... you've already moved yourself.
OP
Guy Preston
Orange Belt
- Thread Starter
- #8
Thanks Chris,
There are quite a few differences with some of the Ryuha kata when practiced in the KJJR syllabus, rather than the Ryuha syllabus itself - I'm thinking that may be where the seoigama differences come from? I've only learned this kata as KJJR, not as HTYR itself as a Ryuha...
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi Guy,
Interesting... I'm not sure that a variation shown in the KJJR syllabus versus the way it's done in the Ryu itself is the answer. More likely that the names are reversed in the Ishitani-den (Genbukan) versus the Mizuta-den (Bujinkan). For example, the way the kata are listed in the Mizuta-den is:
Seiogama/Seiogakari -
Uke attacks with a tsuki to the men, tori moves back and right with the right leg and drops the hips, as you perform hidari uke nagashi, then bring your right arm beneath the uke's arm, catch with the left hand in Oni Kudaki, step in with the hip and execute Seio Nage.
Koshi Nage Gama/Koshi Nage Gakari -
Uke steps forwards and catches tori's lapel with their left hand, the strikes to the face with a right tsuki. Tori evades back and performs uke nagashi, then catches the opponent's left elbow, lifting it, step across, and throw to the side with Koshi Nage.
There are a some kata that I am aware of the names being changed around on in the Shoden Kata, for instance... but that certainly matches Koshi Nage Gama more than Seiogama, to my mind.
Interesting... I'm not sure that a variation shown in the KJJR syllabus versus the way it's done in the Ryu itself is the answer. More likely that the names are reversed in the Ishitani-den (Genbukan) versus the Mizuta-den (Bujinkan). For example, the way the kata are listed in the Mizuta-den is:
Seiogama/Seiogakari -
Uke attacks with a tsuki to the men, tori moves back and right with the right leg and drops the hips, as you perform hidari uke nagashi, then bring your right arm beneath the uke's arm, catch with the left hand in Oni Kudaki, step in with the hip and execute Seio Nage.
Koshi Nage Gama/Koshi Nage Gakari -
Uke steps forwards and catches tori's lapel with their left hand, the strikes to the face with a right tsuki. Tori evades back and performs uke nagashi, then catches the opponent's left elbow, lifting it, step across, and throw to the side with Koshi Nage.
There are a some kata that I am aware of the names being changed around on in the Shoden Kata, for instance... but that certainly matches Koshi Nage Gama more than Seiogama, to my mind.
OP
Guy Preston
Orange Belt
- Thread Starter
- #10
Thanks Chris, I wasn't aware of the differences - I'm not familiar with BJK training, names, etc...
