What would be the best way for the Art of TKD to deliver a set of new poomse that has more practical techniques in them than the Taegueks od the Chon Ji poomse have?
Terry
Terry
Poomse
- Thread starter terryl965
- Start date
Fluffy
Black Belt
Great question.....I feel you would need to add multiple partners for the practical application, but then you would have one or three-steps.
I think the first thing that one needs is the knowledge of actually how to use a kata for self defense purposes.
Here is a thread on that...and this is a helpful excerpt in my opinion.
The next thing one needs to do is reconnect the basics practiced with what is practiced in the kata. The kata should use the basics practiced in class.
Here is a thread on this...a helpful excerpt is here.
Creating a kata should never be taken likely. They require alot of thought and work. Creating a set of kata is like making a set of crib notes that describe the whole of the martial arts you practice. The principles, the techniques, the theory and application, and sparring should all flow from it. A student, when practicing a set of kata you created for our school, should be practicing a memnotic device that leads to all of your hands-on MA knowledge.
Here is a thread on that...and this is a helpful excerpt in my opinion.
The next thing one needs to do is reconnect the basics practiced with what is practiced in the kata. The kata should use the basics practiced in class.
Here is a thread on this...a helpful excerpt is here.
Creating a kata should never be taken likely. They require alot of thought and work. Creating a set of kata is like making a set of crib notes that describe the whole of the martial arts you practice. The principles, the techniques, the theory and application, and sparring should all flow from it. A student, when practicing a set of kata you created for our school, should be practicing a memnotic device that leads to all of your hands-on MA knowledge.
rmclain
Black Belt
For new forms: Sport TKD people would have to insert the techniques they are using today in competition into patterns of movement that emphasize good principles of movement (body shifting, breathing, timing, etc.). Someone that practices sport TKD would have to step in here - I can't help with sport techniques. But, I think the forms should be the "encyclopedia" of techniques used in sparring for modern TKD - to be useful for these students.
Just to play "Devil's Advocate," I still don't see what is wrong with the older forms practiced in Korea prior to the creation of the Palgue, Tae Guek or Yudansha forms. Older forms such as: Pyung Ahn 1-5, Shipsoo, Bassai Tae & Sho, No Hai, Chulki 1-3, Ahm Hak, Kong Son Kun. They certainly have more thought put into them than the Palgue or Tae Guk forms.
But, I suppose these older forms really don't reflect the changes that have occurred to TKD since 1967. In that sense, they (older forms) may not be useful for sport practitioners, since the connection between form technique and sparring could be a problem. Perhaps this is why I haven't seen any techniques from forms being utilized in modern TKD sparring.
R. McLain
Just to play "Devil's Advocate," I still don't see what is wrong with the older forms practiced in Korea prior to the creation of the Palgue, Tae Guek or Yudansha forms. Older forms such as: Pyung Ahn 1-5, Shipsoo, Bassai Tae & Sho, No Hai, Chulki 1-3, Ahm Hak, Kong Son Kun. They certainly have more thought put into them than the Palgue or Tae Guk forms.
But, I suppose these older forms really don't reflect the changes that have occurred to TKD since 1967. In that sense, they (older forms) may not be useful for sport practitioners, since the connection between form technique and sparring could be a problem. Perhaps this is why I haven't seen any techniques from forms being utilized in modern TKD sparring.
R. McLain
You know I have to agree with the sport application thought process. However, the sport aspect is just that an aspect or piece of the whole pie.
See you can break down Tae Kwon Do as the following general pieces to create the Tae Kwon Do pie: Poomse, basic moves, one step sparring, striking and kicking drills.
I know each school is a little different in cirriculum variation. The school my friend belongs to teaches the Tae Guek forms only. They don't even get into the ITF forms.
They have different one step sparring techniques. However the basic moves are the same. At least 1-6.
So what would be practical for a new set of forms? Who would decide this? The better question would be what is practical? How would it be defined? For what purpose would they be better suited? Tae Kwon Do: Sport or Tae Kwon Do: Self-Defense?
Just a little to chew on I guess.
See you can break down Tae Kwon Do as the following general pieces to create the Tae Kwon Do pie: Poomse, basic moves, one step sparring, striking and kicking drills.
I know each school is a little different in cirriculum variation. The school my friend belongs to teaches the Tae Guek forms only. They don't even get into the ITF forms.
They have different one step sparring techniques. However the basic moves are the same. At least 1-6.
So what would be practical for a new set of forms? Who would decide this? The better question would be what is practical? How would it be defined? For what purpose would they be better suited? Tae Kwon Do: Sport or Tae Kwon Do: Self-Defense?
Just a little to chew on I guess.
terryl965 said:
I guess to voice an opinion on your queston, I'd have to understand the question better.
When you say "a poomse that has more practical techniques" what exactly is practical? Practical for what level? Practical to simulate a certain aspect of the art, or the art as a whole? Remember, we're talking essentially about relative beginners here. Or do you also mean Koryo, Kungang, Taebeak, etc.
I think the Palgwe's did a much better job of representing the art as a whole, but not relative to the level they're taught, at least nowdays. Hence, the birth of the Taegueks. They're both practical, but each to a certain end. Because these are the only form sets I'm familiar with, I'm not sure I'm even qualified to offer an opinion. Maybe if I had a better understanding of what you mean by "practical".
OP
- Thread Starter
- #7
Gemini said:
Practical for todays vase stituation of everyday life. I remember the old sets like Pyung Ahn 1-5, Shipsoo, Bassai Tae & Sho, No Hai, Chulki 1-3, Ahm Hak, Kong Son Kun. More in line with these. Gemini you are ones opinion I would love to hear more so than others.
Terry
Well, I'll give it a try based on what we all understand is my limited knowledge of our art. matt.m, this is in response to your statement also, so please don't feel left out.
I believe any form/kata/poomse should represent the art. I think we can all agree on that. However, to say it should represent self defense or sparring or such would be to say, in my mind, the equivelant of the servant (a single faccet our our art, representing it's master that in this case is Taekwondo. That makes no sense to me. However, again, if you're focusing solely on the colored belt forms such as Palgwe or Taeguek, I think they do a pretty good job now. When you get into the Black Belt forms, which get progressively harder, I think that is also a good representation as I know them.
When I say limited in my experience, it's because not being familiar with the original forms or the mid-advanced Black Belt forms, my opinion can only be weighed so far. Limited opinion based on limited knowledge.
So to answer your question based on that limited knowledge, I would say, I wouldn't change a thing. I think they're right where they need to be to serve their purpose.
I believe any form/kata/poomse should represent the art. I think we can all agree on that. However, to say it should represent self defense or sparring or such would be to say, in my mind, the equivelant of the servant (a single faccet our our art, representing it's master that in this case is Taekwondo. That makes no sense to me. However, again, if you're focusing solely on the colored belt forms such as Palgwe or Taeguek, I think they do a pretty good job now. When you get into the Black Belt forms, which get progressively harder, I think that is also a good representation as I know them.
When I say limited in my experience, it's because not being familiar with the original forms or the mid-advanced Black Belt forms, my opinion can only be weighed so far. Limited opinion based on limited knowledge.
So to answer your question based on that limited knowledge, I would say, I wouldn't change a thing. I think they're right where they need to be to serve their purpose.
This entire question rests on the question..."what is the purpose of poomse?"
In my art, Tang Soo Do, they represent everything the art encompasses. Hwang Kee has written many times that the backbone of our art are the hyung. With that being said, I think that outlining your objectives is very important.
This must be the first step whenever you are trying to teach anything. If you are confused about this, then your students will also be confused. Creating a hyung should never be taken likely. It is like a haiku that describes who you are in respects to the martial arts.
upnorthkyosa
ps - the "traditional" forms are great, btw, there is nothing wrong with stepping back in order to step forward.
In my art, Tang Soo Do, they represent everything the art encompasses. Hwang Kee has written many times that the backbone of our art are the hyung. With that being said, I think that outlining your objectives is very important.
This must be the first step whenever you are trying to teach anything. If you are confused about this, then your students will also be confused. Creating a hyung should never be taken likely. It is like a haiku that describes who you are in respects to the martial arts.
upnorthkyosa
ps - the "traditional" forms are great, btw, there is nothing wrong with stepping back in order to step forward.
Fluffy
Black Belt
I was told that the purpose of forms were to practice moves with out fighting. Traditionally warriors did not spar, they did forms and went to war. Did I hear wrong?
For a new set to be more practical you should learn the applications first before you learn the poomse. The applications should also be a part of the belt test.terryl965 said:
Otherwise they will just become part of the "poomse-hoarding".
OP
- Thread Starter
- #14
I do know all the applications and I still believe a better set could be done with more of the traditional side inserted into the poomse it self.
Terry
Terry
What is traditional?
A hundred years ago you learned the applications first and then you learned the poomse, and maybe you learned only two or three poomse.
Today you learn 15-20 poomse but you don't learn the applications.
A hundred years ago you learned the applications first and then you learned the poomse, and maybe you learned only two or three poomse.
Today you learn 15-20 poomse but you don't learn the applications.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #16
allpet said:
Traditional is not sport TKD and for the record I was not around a houndred years ago, I know I'm old but not that old
Terry
a 100 years ago there wasn't anything called TKD...nor were there any of the forms that we know as TKD forms in existence either.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #19
Good question allpet and I would say more of the traditional way of old, with the application being updated for today world.
If that makes sense to you.
Terry
If that makes sense to you.
Terry
Then you should try to train with Patrick MacCarthy or Vince Morris or their students, then you will see that the techniques in the taegeuk are effective. Fx. bo joomeok is a very nasty shoulder throw and it can even be used in ground fighting... :ultracool
