Partners in Martial Arts training

[KitEskrima]

Hi All
I was just curious,when training with a partner do you see any advantages in the partner being uncooperative rather than having a cooperative partner? I am lucky enough to have cooperative partners, however I have had some partners who train a bit "rougher"than they should(for example in sparring when they hit a bit harder) I don't mind it as I kind of relish training with these sorts of people because I try to be extra careful when sparring these guys and because I know they train harder I am more alert and aware.

However the prefered situation for me is to have a sparring partner at the same intensity as myself and someone I can trust.

I like to hear other people's opinions on training partners?Would they want someone they can trust or someone a bit more haphazardous in their approach or both. I don't mind both but prefer the safe option.

Thanks!

 

[Gemini]

The key word being "partner". It's a matter of mutual respect. I understand the philosophy of training with someone who's a bit rough, might give you a more realistic view of what may or may not work. I don't agree with it. There's a time and a place for everything and that's not it. When you train together, especially for a long period of time, there will come a time when you can raise the stakes without creating a more dangerous situation. That's called advanced training.

I used to have a Hapkido partner that trained like that. It finally got to where I had to explain to him that if continued to show me how much "tougher" he was than me, he was gonna get hurt.

 

[arnisador]

Well...beginners do teach you the most, because they don't react the way they "should." A good partnet should be cooperative...but still surprising, at least on occasion.

 

[MJS]

Hi All
I was just curious,when training with a partner do you see any advantages in the partner being uncooperative rather than having a cooperative partner? I am lucky enough to have cooperative partners, however I have had some partners who train a bit "rougher"than they should(for example in sparring when they hit a bit harder) I don't mind it as I kind of relish training with these sorts of people because I try to be extra careful when sparring these guys and because I know they train harder I am more alert and aware.

However the prefered situation for me is to have a sparring partner at the same intensity as myself and someone I can trust.

I like to hear other people's opinions on training partners?Would they want someone they can trust or someone a bit more haphazardous in their approach or both. I don't mind both but prefer the safe option.

Thanks!

When someone is learning a technique for the first time, IMO its good to have that cooperation. Gradually adding in some resistance is a good thing and will start giving you a more realistic feel for your techniques.

As for the sparring, the level of control should be determined before the sparring begins. The chance to injury is greater if this is not done. Of course, even when that level is raised, its still good to work with someone who still has your best interest in mind, and the same for you.

Mike

 

[mantis]

whether the partner is cooperative or not still it's not as real as going pretending you're drunk and going to like Tijuana or a bar or a concernt, harrass somebody and fight for real
that's the most cooperative partner you can get
advantage of that is a lot.. no place to count them here
disadvantages, pretty much none.. as long as you have health insurance, and there's someone to bail you out of jail.
have fun..
haha

 

[MJS]

whether the partner is cooperative or not still it's not as real as going pretending you're drunk and going to like Tijuana or a bar or a concernt, harrass somebody and fight for real

True. However, training can still be geared towards a more realistic approach. Scenario training, putting your partner into the proper mindset, etc. are just a few ways this can be done.

that's the most cooperative partner you can get

I think you mean uncooperative. When someone is determined to cause you some harm, they certainly are not going to cooperate with you.

Mike

 

[KitEskrima]

I found it helpful to communicate with the training partner as much as possible before drilling a technique.

The key word being "partner". It's a matter of mutual respect

from Gemini...and I totally agree hence why I like to spar with my brother more than anyone because I trust him.

Well...beginners do teach you the most, because they don't react the way they "should."

from arnisador
Yes I agree with this as well,because it gives you a chance to teach them how its done in the class and gives you chance to analyse what you are doing rightly or wrongly!

As for the sparring, the level of control should be determined before the sparring begins.

from mjs
Yes I agree with this as well and I am lucky to have great instructors who do so,however what if you spar with some guy who has a very high intensity level?,for example in TKD lesson I had a few years ago,I was sparring with a higher graded guy and he was kicking pretty hard. I didn't complain or anything but if he was facing a total beginner it wouldn't have been fair. However generally I found that most students do listien to their instructors and that was an isolated incident.

whether the partner is cooperative or not still it's not as real as going pretending you're drunk and going to like Tijuana or a bar or a concernt, harrass somebody and fight for real that's the most cooperative partner you can get

from mantis.
when training in a controlled environment we know what to expect,in our knife drills we now add distractions to help our awareness. I guess we can go out and fight someone to "test" our skills but these days the law says otherwise(and I wouldn't do anyway )Unless I wanted to be a doorman of a nightclub which I guess gurantees you a fight or two.

However, training can still be geared towards a more realistic approach. Scenario training, putting your partner into the proper mindset, etc. are just a few ways this can be done.

from MJS
Definitley agree with this one!I am lucky enough to have this kind of training.

Thanks

 

[mantis]

True. However, training can still be geared towards a more realistic approach. Scenario training, putting your partner into the proper mindset, etc. are just a few ways this can be done.




I think you mean uncooperative. When someone is determined to cause you some harm, they certainly are not going to cooperate with you.

Mike

oh is that what you meant by uncooperative?
i thought uncooperative means you start training ON the person, and he starts asking you for chocolate and stuff.. gosh! 6-year-olds!!

 

[Grenadier]

Good partners communicate (whether verbally or non-verbally), and make adjustments as needed. Sometimes, it things get a bit heated, then one or the other should simply step back, and tell the other guy that they both need to slow things down.

Sometimes, partners are familiar with each other, and if one is hitting a bit too hard, then the other responds in turn with a bit more force as well. If the partner is a good one, he'll recognize it right away, and tone it down, and the other guy will follow.

However, even the most trusted of partners might not see things all of the time. This is where it's important to realize, that it's OK to call for a stoppage of the action if things are getting too heated.

Being a partner to someone in this case means that one is responsible for his own safety as well as the safety of the one with which he trains. It's a reciprocal effort.

There's no shame in communicating with each other.

 

[MJS]

from mjs
Yes I agree with this as well and I am lucky to have great instructors who do so,however what if you spar with some guy who has a very high intensity level?,for example in TKD lesson I had a few years ago,I was sparring with a higher graded guy and he was kicking pretty hard. I didn't complain or anything but if he was facing a total beginner it wouldn't have been fair. However generally I found that most students do listien to their instructors and that was an isolated incident.

What was the difference in rank between you and the other person? IMO, when sparring someone of a lesser rank, its important to help them learn and make the lesson productive for them, not use them as a punching bag. As I said before, the rules should be established before the match begins. I've sparred with advanced people who still insisted on going hard. There were times when I'd make my stirkes a bit harder, in an attempt to send a message. Unfortunately there were times when that message was not received, in which case, I'd stop the match and verbally tell them. I have no problem picking up the pace, but again, its something that should be agreed upon prior. It also helps to have someone heading up the ring who is supposed to be watching what is going on. I've seen matches turn ugly because of the excessive contact.

from MJS
Definitley agree with this one!I am lucky enough to have this kind of training.

Thanks

Keeping the training alive and real will help in the long run.

Mike

 

[MJS]

oh is that what you meant by uncooperative?

Yes, thats what I meant.

i thought uncooperative means you start training ON the person, and he starts asking you for chocolate and stuff.. gosh! 6-year-olds!!

Actually thats called not taking ones training seriously!

Mike

 

[KitEskrima]

Originally Posted by MJS
What was the difference in rank between you and the other person?

the guy I think was a red belt and I was a yellow belt. This was many years ago and stupidly I probably went in as hard as he did,at the end of the day though the way I see it is that we all have jobs to go to the next morning and we don't want to end up really hurt.
I totally agree that higher graded people should not take advantage of the new people,its not right and as one of my friends once told me the whole point of him learning martial arts was that he can pass it on.

As my main Martial Art is Eskrima I make sure I don't strike too hard,sometimes a partner will adjust his intensity to match yours. But communication is important.

Originally Posted by grenadier
However, even the most trusted of partners might not see things all of the time. This is where it's important to realize, that it's OK to call for a stoppage of the action if things are getting too heated.

Yup I agree, I have had training partners who kind of switch off in the past and a friend on mine seem to go on automatic and only realise after he was hitting quite hard only afterwards. Sometimes he would be the communicator at the beginning and say "just go 40% ok?" and then go all out:jedi1: I then have to remind him what he said. I think you are absolutely right what you say.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I think there are a numbers of places to be as a partner.

Two of the main situations I run into are sparring and self-defense.

Self-defense is probably toughest because if you are the attacker, it's easy to kind 'go along' with the move since you know where the move is going. This is just natural because some times it's less painful to go with the technique rather than resist it. I tend to do this when working with my kids; don't grip hard enough or be too easy to release my grip or whatever. On the other hand, I've worked with people who resist the technique, instinctively or not, because they know what is going to happen. They know you are going to bend their arm 'that way' so the resist being bent that way. It's hard to get the right balance between "resist like a real attacker who is *not* your friend, but not one who knows what's going to happen". There is a lot of trust involved, as well, since a lot of self-defense moves are uncomfortable-to-painful for the attacker so the attacker has to know that the defender is not going to seriously injure them, but has to expect a certain amount of pain.

Sparring is different. I think every time you spar in training there should be a purpose, both parties should understand the purpose before you start, and you should set the level based on those goals. For example, I've done light-contact, no-pads sparring. The goal of the sessions was footwork and quickness, and both sparrers had to understand that the goal was not to abuse the other. This was a lot of fun and no-one got hurt. You should have a purpose for sparring; if it's to go all out then go all out and expect it of the other, but in training sessions sometimes you don't want to need to go all out and communication is important. I spar against my children and sometimes I hit too hard for them and they need to let me know to lighten up. I'm not tring to 'beat them', I'm trying to help them learn and be better and that goal is not served by being too rough with them. At the other end, I spar with a black belt pretty regularly and I can tell he's not fighting me at full power. He's trying to help me learn so he sets his power and level of intensity based on what I can handle it a way that still challenges me but also teaches me. One thing my instructor stresses though is that a) expect to get back at least what you give and b) communicate; if it's too rough, let the other person know.

In all cases, practicing Martial Arts with someone is a matter of trust, a matter of building that trust, honoring the trust of others, and communicating.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think it is really important to have trust and respect when training with people. Training hard and pushing each others limits can be good, but if you don't trust the person to keep control and you think he may actually injure you, then it isn't a good situation. I would be careful about training with that kind of person.

 

[searcher]

Going light and going hard should all be a part of the training time you have with your training partners. Work on a technique, then go hard to "test" it out. If the technique does not work then go back and work it again at a controlled pace. If you are having to fight for your life every time you train you are not really learning anything. It is always good to have a training partner that will go hard but not to the point of injury. I have had it both ways and prefer the ones that can adapt to training needs, but I would love to be rich also. We don't always get everything the way we want it.

 

[mantis]

I have a friend who started studying BJJ recently
he's desperately looking for a partner with a similar level of skill because he's sick of blue belts kicking his butt all the time
do you think it would help if I, 7* pray mantis student, offer to be his experiment pig?

 

[Flying Crane]

I have a friend who started studying BJJ recently
he's desperately looking for a partner with a similar level of skill because he's sick of blue belts kicking his butt all the time
do you think it would help if I, 7* pray mantis student, offer to be his experiment pig?

Sure, why not? You can both learn something. Let him work his techniques on you, but see if his techniques can adapt to your mantis? and see if you can use your mantis to defeat his BJJ techniques. Just make it a give-and-take, so it is approached intelligently so that both of you learn from the experience. Have at it!

 

[arnisador]

The blue belts will be doing this to him for a while.

It can only help for you to roll with him, but without a BJJ background, it'll only help so much. Everything opens you up for something else...there'll be a lot of strategy missing if the other person doesn't know what's coming and how to defend it. Many initial moves in BJJ effectively serve to set up other moves.

So, go for it, but he really needs a fellow grappler.

 

[KitEskrima]

Hi all

I wrote an article on my blog about partners in Martial Art training
http://kittomainia.blogspot.com/2005/10/howdy-partner.html
It will be quite a long post if I posted but I talk about how I like to train with someone with the same intensity and I have grown to train with awkward partners as well.

Thanks
Kit

 

[Loki]

Well...beginners do teach you the most, because they don't react the way they "should." A good partnet should be cooperative...but still surprising, at least on occasion.

Very good point.

The ideal partner will give you a hard time but won't beat the snot out of you with every attack. To top it off, he'll stop occasionally and tell you what you're doing wrong if he keeps getting hits in.