Overhand vs. upward block

[Kung Fu Wang]

- When your opponent uses a left back fist on your head,
- you use an left arm upward block to block it.
- If your opponent changes his left back fist into a downward grab, pull your blocking arm down, and
- uses an right overhand on top of your head.

Since your opponent's left back fist and pull down motion can be one move, also your pulled down left block arm may jam your own right arm, you won't have another arm to block that overhand. What will you do?

Your thought?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm having trouble visualizing what you are describing.
If you are describing the motion of the clip then for me I make it simple. If I follow the motion of the technique, then what you stated will happen regardless of if I think about it or not. This is why I tell student's not to bail out of techniques and to not get into the habit of trying to "fix a technique" or Modernize a technique.

I actually use a similar technique as what you are showing in the clip. Here are my thoughts which are based on learning the technique which means hours and hours of drilling that motion because it has to be something that happens without thought. Your clip is an example of a fighting combination that is found in forms.

The concept is easy.
1. Lead hand clears / attacks while opening a path - Basically that lead hand is a blender blade that hits any incoming technique. Punches upper cuts, hooks, jabs. crosses, attempts to grab the waist for a take down. It also attacks your opponents guards and face. So if the opponent doesn't punch or kick, then you just nail them with it.

2. The rear hand is the clean up crew - It's basically the punch that will turn off your opponents lights. But you can also use it as a heavy strike against the guard.

You show only the Beginning and Middle of this technique. You cut the ending off. The ending is similar It has 3 elements Entry - Delivery - Escape. with the option to flow back into Entry to change the combination.

My thought process is simple.
Whatever happens #1 will take care of it as long as I send it through with force without edit or doubt. Because it's a circular technique, follow #1 with #2. With this combo there's no need to think of what the other will do.

The best thing about this combo is that there are different variation of combinations that you can use with this same movement. I can take the Beginning + Middle and change anything that comes after the Middle to unload other on long fist techniques.

 

[drop bear]

Nah. The second overhand will corkscrew in to a hook. And you will be in trouble.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That move is from the Gong Li Chuan "3 rings catch the moon".

The overhand can also be a downward pulling if your opponent's block with his other free arm, you can then pull that arm down as well. In the form it then followed by a left hand take over the right hand pulling (switch hands), and end with a right back fist.

1st ring - left back fist.
2nd ring - right over hand.
3rd ring - right back fist.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Nah. The second overhand will corkscrew in to a hook. And you will be in trouble.

Any hook (include overhand) can also be a grab and pull.

IMO, compare to the straight line punches (such as jab, cross, ...), the circular punches (such as back fist, hook, overhand, hammer fist, uppercut, spiral punch, ...) are easier to be chanced into a grab and pull.

 

[skribs]

I too am having a hard time visualizing this. If you do an upward block, then the two things you suggest - an overhand strike or a downward pull - are the last things my opponent would want to do? Why? Because my arm is in the way of an overhand strike, and my resistance is moving up against a downward pull.

You'll notice in the image of the overhand, the defender's arms are down. That's what the overhand tries to do: come down over the guard. If your opponent is in a high block position, all you're going to do is hit his arm.

My most likely attack would be as your block goes high to simply backfist again with the same hand, or go for an uppercut (the opposite of an overhand). A roundhouse kick to the ribs on the high block side would also be a great follow-up, since you're stretching and exposing the ribs. Maybe a back kick.

If I were to do a grab, it wouldn't be to grab and pull your arm. You're putting your weight up high when you do this (not just your arm, but your shoulders are high when you do this block), which means you should be easy to sweep. Your arms aren't in position to frame me away from you, either.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

or go for an uppercut (the opposite of an overhand).

Agree! When your opponent upward blocks your back fist, you change your back fist into a downward pulling, if you can sense that his blocking is too strong that you just can't pull his arm down, instead of overhand him, your other hand should uppercut him.

When you throw a back fist, if you can sense that your opponent is going to raise his arm to block it, your other hand uppercut should go out before his blocking arm can make contact on your back fist.

Your 1st punch open your opponent up. Your 2nd punch attack that opening.

 

[skribs]

Agree! When your opponent upward blocks your back fist, you change your back fist into a downward pulling, if you can sense that his blocking is too strong that you just can't pull his arm down, instead of...

No. Why waste time checking to see if his block is too strong? Instead, use it against him. By the time you check and reset, he's switched.

 

[wab25]

With the upward block, as shown in the OP... You don't stand there and wait for the attack to land. That block is usually practiced in front stance, and the drills have you walking forward, alternating arms doing the block. The idea, is that you are entering to block. Further, your block should effect your opponents body.

I am not trying to block his attack wrist to wrist or even forearm to forearm. (playing fair is no fun...) Ideally, I want to enter far enough in, and low enough that the upper block catches his arm pit, pushing his humerus up. This also upsets his stance. Sure, I don't always get that far... but I intend to. If you get any piece of the humerus, you are good. If you get just his forearm, you are still ok, as you are still entering. If he has any structure to his arm at all, you will still upset his balance and body structure.

In Shotokan, we use a C step when stepping in. Which means, I am getting off the centerline as I block. I am not staying on that same line he attacked me on. When I make contact to the arm, not only am I driving in to him and up, but also to the side. In your example, this should turn the other guy away from me.

If I catch the other guy, under his armpit, there will be no grab. If I catch his humerus, there will be no grab. If I catch his forearm, because I am driving in, any grab will be hard, he will have to break contact. His attempt to break contact, should give me more openings to use against him.

Timing and distance is key... as are driving forward and getting offline.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No. Why waste time checking to see if his block is too strong? Instead, use it against him. By the time you check and reset, he's switched.

I'm with you on this one. The way I learn is that "forward" is the only way. As scary as it is, sometimes you just have to blast it through.

I've used to use upper blocks in my early Jow Ga days. It was habit from my early karate skill set. The way that I use it was to aim it directly at the guard. The goal was simple. If I follow the movement then 3 possible things can happen.
1. If the punch doesn't come, then I can pin the guard
2. If the punch doesn't come, then I can smash my fore arm upward into the nose
3. If the punch comes then the movement from my arm will raise the punch. I have a VHS tape somewhere in this house showing this when I was sparring, but I can't find it. My upper block only had to be high enough for the punch to go over my head. As long as I move forward with my body, my arm will raise the punch without me having to do much lifting.

If I try to only catch the punch then, the technique would fail. In reality, I don't know what which of the 3 will happen. But by following through I'm "guaranteed" that I have 3 out of 4 chance that the upper block will be successful. I have a 1 out of 4 chance that the punch will hit me.

I'm going to say that's about right because I was able to land this technique enough to use it often. I know my numbers aren't scientific, but the reality is that one punch has one chance to hit me. The upward block as I was doing had 3 chances of affecting my opponent.

The key was. To not use it to test, but to drive it through