Out/duck toeing and Karate

[Uncle Duke]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, and am looking to start Karate at a local dojo. My experience is almost exclusively in grappling, and I've never done anything that requires kicking above the waist before, so I wanted to ask some advice about this. I have out-toeing--where my knees and feed turn a bit outwards, rather than pointing straight. Does anyone else here have this problem? If so, how has it impacted your martial arts, if at all?

Thank you

 

[Yokozuna514]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, and am looking to start Karate at a local dojo. My experience is almost exclusively in grappling, and I've never done anything that requires kicking above the waist before, so I wanted to ask some advice about this. I have out-toeing--where my knees and feed turn a bit outwards, rather than pointing straight. Does anyone else here have this problem? If so, how has it impacted your martial arts, if at all?

Thank you

Welcome to the forum Uncle Duke. "Karate" is a broad term so perhaps by clarifying the style of karate you are doing, most of us will understand the type of classes you will be doing (eg: Kata, Kumite based, and the style of kumite you will be doing).

Getting back to your question, without knowing the degree of "out-toe-edness", it may not impact your practice at all. A lot of people can have a degree of this and from what I have seen, there have been no real issues that will hold you back from a general standpoint.

 

[Uncle Duke]

Welcome to the forum Uncle Duke. "Karate" is a broad term so perhaps by clarifying the style of karate you are doing, most of us will understand the type of classes you will be doing (eg: Kata, Kumite based, and the style of kumite you will be doing).

Getting back to your question, without knowing the degree of "out-toe-edness", it may not impact your practice at all. A lot of people can have a degree of this and from what I have seen, there have been no real issues that will hold you back from a general standpoint.

Thank you Yokozuna514.

The style of Karate is 'old school shotokan', which I've come to understand means shotokan that isn't point fighting oriented. The dojo previously belonged to the JKA, but they have since gone a different way, and occasionally practice Kata from an Okinawan style, but I can't remember which.

That's great to hear! It doesn't cause me any pain, so I don't imagine that it's particularly bad, but it is visible. I'm hoping that the hip flexibility exercises of Karate might actually help with it.

Thanks again

 

[MadMartigan]

I have out-toeing--where my knees and feed turn a bit outwards, rather than pointing straight.

I'm assuming that the out-toeing is structural, rather than from habit. If it was just due to habit, then Karate would he incredibly helpful in correct the foot position.

Working on the assumption that this is a structural issue that cannot be changed; I see no reason that martial arts training cannot adapt for this. In areas where the stance requires a certain position, you will need to work with your instructor (within what your body allows) to make minor adjustments.

I'd recommend having a conversation with the instructor beforehand to go over where the limits are so they can tailor the changes to work for you.

This goes with the obvious that: If there are structural limits in your knee that may be damaged through pivoting etc, (like this)

then you should have a chat with a doctor to be sure it's safe.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

my knees and feed turn a bit outwards,

The "reverse shin bite" is just designed for you. When people use low roundhouse kick at your low leg, all you will need is to turn your shin bone into that kick.

 

[dvcochran]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, and am looking to start Karate at a local dojo. My experience is almost exclusively in grappling, and I've never done anything that requires kicking above the waist before, so I wanted to ask some advice about this. I have out-toeing--where my knees and feed turn a bit outwards, rather than pointing straight. Does anyone else here have this problem? If so, how has it impacted your martial arts, if at all?

Thank you

Welcome to the forum.
I feel any style that heavily uses stances such as Shotokan may be of benefit.
I can’t say I have heard of your condition as described but leg and foot position are at the very basis is stance work. It will be drilled a Lot. That and leg conditioning would be of great help believe.
I recommend discussing it with your instructor(s) so they can pay special attention to your positioning.
I wish you the best. Keep us up to date on your progress.

 

[geezer]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, and am looking to start Karate at a local dojo. My experience is almost exclusively in grappling, and I've never done anything that requires kicking above the waist before, so I wanted to ask some advice about this. I have out-toeing--where my knees and feed turn a bit outwards, rather than pointing straight. Does anyone else here have this problem? If so, how has it impacted your martial arts, if at all? Thank you

Hey Uncle Duke! I'm also "duck-footed". Especially my right foot. When my knee points and flexes straight forward, my foot angles outward at about 20°. I have a congenital fusion of the bones in my ankles which severely limits lateral movement and apparently this splaying of the feet is one of the common characteristics of this uncommon condition.

At any rate, my splay-footedness affects my training in several areas. My core art is Wing Chun which has a pigeon-toed training stance built around adducting the knees. Okinawan karate does something vaguely similar in the Sanchin kata.

So, although I can achieve the "classic" position, when I do my knees are over-rotated inward to the point of making the stance look correct while actually being less functional and unnecessarily stressing both my knee and hip joints. Over the years I have learned ways to moderate the stance to suit my physical condition while still allowing for good functionality.

The second place my "duck-footedness" has given me trouble is in taking the traditional ma-bo or horse-stance widely used in martial arts including Wing Chun's long pole training. Some systems allow for the feet to splay a bit, but in the traditional Chinese arts, the classic horse-stance demands that the feet be parallel and point straight forward:

Such a horse stance puts extreme stress on my knee joints so I compensate by splaying my feet which, although considered "bad form", again is more functional for me.

The real problem here is how your instructor feels about your situation. In the several arts I have trained, I have worked with instructors who varied greatly in their attitudes. Some listened to me describe my condition and helped my find a work around, others were inflexible and reacted angrily to my "stubbornness" leading me to limit or even discontinue training with them.

Even today, after decades in the martial arts, I've encountered a few odd people who make unsolicited comments about my "incorrect stances" assuming that somehow I simply don't know "the right way" to do it and feel that it's up to them to correct me. Fortunately, martial arts is supposed to teach us patience too.

 

[_Simon_]

G'day Uncle Duke! Welcome to the forum

Yep I'm the same, and @geezer , I'm the almost exact same! I don't think I have any particular condition, but right foot is definitely more outward. Same deal when you describe the pidgeon-toed and horse stances, I have to modify too.

Someone brought this topic up a few months ago here if it's of any help Uncle Duke:

Duck Feet

Hey Guys! I've been a fan of martial arts since I was a kid. I never got a chance to learn as a kid since I grew up in the middle of nowhere. Now I'm in my early thirties and living in a major city. I'm not a natural athlete but over the last few months I've been working on getting into shape...

www.martialtalk.com

I'll post here what I wrote in there hehe:

-----

I've had duck feet all my life (my right foot is bad, massive angle!), trained in full contact karate for close to a decade, no troubles.

I even asked my physio (who was also a karate practitioner) whether having duck feet is an issue and he said nope. It's something I'd always wondered about too, so I hope others chime in, but so far the consensus I've heard is no it's not an issue. There is however always incremental work we can do to improve joints, tendon strength, mobility and general strengthening of the area.

-----

I'd say don't worry, we've all got slight differences amongst us but it's never a barrier. Get in there and have a ball

 

[Hanshi]

If I understand correctly, you are somewhat "pigeon toed". With any physical issue that is or may seem problematic doesn't necessarily prevent one from doing a particular martial art. Any school should be able to modify techniques, if necessary, if it is impossible to perform as taught. But this also requires some adaptation by the student.

I've had students with mild to extremely limiting conditions progress well, even if slower than the average student. I'm talking about one student with an artificial leg, another with only one arm and one special case with only 4 stumps - no actual arms or legs. Talk with the sensei and see if it is a possibility.

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

Welcome to the forum Uncle Duke. "Karate" is a broad term so perhaps by clarifying the style of karate you are doing, most of us will understand the type of classes you will be doing (eg: Kata, Kumite based, and the style of kumite you will be doing).

Getting back to your question, without knowing the degree of "out-toe-edness", it may not impact your practice at all. A lot of people can have a degree of this and from what I have seen, there have been no real issues that will hold you back from a general standpoint.

I've taught for 50 years. This is a small minor point, not to worry about. Everyone is different. Learn the art and let your body adapt to its own fee.
Sifu

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Everyone's body is different; some more than others. Karate is a martial arts style that is big on using body mechanics to develop and deliver power (punching, kicking) and create solid structures (blocking) as well as moving rapidly and smoothly from one stance to another as needed. The arts presume that 'most' karateka are within a particular set of parameters in terms of how their body is structured, so having 'straight feet' can be emphasized. But the base purpose of having straight feet is to get the body mechanics lined up and moving in the correct direction. If your body is significantly different, then you have to find the correct structure for yourself, regardless of where your feet happen to line up. A good sensei will work with that. It's not the military; conformity is not the key. The principles of body mechanics are. Personally, I don't care if a person's feet are lined up perfectly if their body structure is stable and their own body mechanics allow the underlying concepts of karate to work correctly.

We deal with people from every walk of life, including those disabled in various ways. Even when body mechanics and structure is less than ideal, it can still be better than it was before training.

Don't worry too much about how your body is put together if you can absorb the principles of how karate works at the fundamental level and put them to work.

 

[dvcochran]

Everyone's body is different; some more than others. Karate is a martial arts style that is big on using body mechanics to develop and deliver power (punching, kicking) and create solid structures (blocking) as well as moving rapidly and smoothly from one stance to another as needed. The arts presume that 'most' karateka are within a particular set of parameters in terms of how their body is structured, so having 'straight feet' can be emphasized. But the base purpose of having straight feet is to get the body mechanics lined up and moving in the correct direction. If your body is significantly different, then you have to find the correct structure for yourself, regardless of where your feet happen to line up. A good sensei will work with that. It's not the military; conformity is not the key. The principles of body mechanics are. Personally, I don't care if a person's feet are lined up perfectly if their body structure is stable and their own body mechanics allow the underlying concepts of karate to work correctly.

We deal with people from every walk of life, including those disabled in various ways. Even when body mechanics and structure is less than ideal, it can still be better than it was before training.

Don't worry too much about how your body is put together if you can absorb the principles of how karate works at the fundamental level and put them to work.

Agree. I would say you can change the word Karate in you comment with Martial Art(s) and it would still be true. Or at least should be true.
Sometimes a person just has to figure out what works best for them. A good instructor will help immensely in the process.

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, and am looking to start Karate at a local dojo. My experience is almost exclusively in grappling, and I've never done anything that requires kicking above the waist before, so I wanted to ask some advice about this. I have out-toeing--where my knees and feed turn a bit outwards, rather than pointing straight. Does anyone else here have this problem? If so, how has it impacted your martial arts, if at all?

Thank you

No problem on toes. Once you learn a striking and kicking art, your body adapts to the art. I teach private lessons on home studio and every students kicks and strikes a different way.
Sifu