"Other forms"

[Laurentkd]

Ok, it seems we have had a lot of talk about the roots of current TKD forms, which I have really enjoyed. Now I am curious, what forms are in your school's curriculum that are not your basic or standard "taekwondo" forms. Which ones are they, what art did they come from and why do you learn them?
For my school only Tae Gueks are required but a lot of black belts learn the Pal Gwes just to know them.

 

[stoneheart]

Lauren, I currently teach TKD at a community center and we're affiliating with Hee Il Cho's AIMAA. He requires both the Chang Hon and Tae Guk forms. However, I also study Okinawan karate, and a few of my more advanced students have expressed interest in learning the differences between the systems. As a result, I have started dissecting the Pinans with them to share with them the remarkable similarities between the Pinans and the Blue Cottage forms.

I will probably continue to share more of the Shuri kata and principles with them as they advance. Passai, Naihanchi, Rohai... I don't plan to teach any Goju to them... too different of a style, I think.

 

[searcher]

I do the Ch'ang H'on forms in my TKD classes as well as teach Chito-ryu karate. I have studied other karate styles along with some Chinese forms. I share all of these with my students. I am a firm believer that you should take what you can.

All schools vary in what they promote and how they do things.

 

[terryl965]

We also do some of Kung Fu animal style like Dragon and drunken master.
Still do the chon ji, Tae Gueks, Pal gwes

 

[exile]

We don't do the Tae Geuks at all. We do the Palgwes as our colored belt forms up to very advanced colored belts, and add in Rohai and a couple of of other O/J kata prior to first dan; Bassai is a first-dan requirement, and I believe that within a couple of years we will be teaching the full Pinan set (the original Okinawan forms).

 

[Laurentkd]

Oh by the way! At Black Belt all students must learn the Yang Short Form, just to throw another one into the mix. Thanks for all your responses thus far!

Exile sir, what is Rohai?

 

[crushing]

Through first dan we do in order; 5 Pyung Ahns, Nohai, Shipsoo, Naihanchi Cho Dan, the Palgwes, Koryo and Bassai. I believe the Tae Geuks are required for second dan along with the other two parts of Naihanchi, but I'm not sure yet.

 

[exile]

Oh by the way! At Black Belt all students must learn the Yang Short Form, just to throw another one into the mix. Thanks for all your responses thus far!

Exile sir, what is Rohai?

Hi Lauren—Rohai is an old Okinawan kata, probably taken over from one of the Chinese systems that were so influential in the formation of karate there, which uses a lot of crane-like movements and stances. There are a number of different versions of it around... there's a good general overview of it here; supposedly the name Rohai derives from Lohan [Quan] `Monk-fist boxing' style of chuan-fa under the Okinawan pronunciation. I can't find a video performance which looks anything like the version we do, alas... but it's clear, from the videos I've seen, that there are many, many versions of it, so that's not too surprising.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I was intrigued by the references to crane-like movements and stances you mentioned in Rohai so I looked around. I found this Shito Ryu site that has videos of lots of kata including Rohai.

http://www.shitokai.com/movies/matsumurarohai.php

 

[searcher]

Rohai is a wonderful kata. Many styles have this kata in various forms. Chiro-ryu has two versions and they are a mainstay in our dojo.

 

[stoneheart]

As others have said there are multiple versions of Rohai. The 'original', generally called Matsumora Rohai to distinguish it from the later versions, was practiced by Kosaku Matsumora, a Tomari-Te master of the late 19th century. Rohai is generally translated as "Vision of a Crane" and there are indeed some crane stances within Matsumora Rohai. On an interesting note, I've seen a few sets of Lohan Quan, and try as I might, I don't see more than the most superficial of connections... It's definitely frustrating to try and trace tode kata back to Chinese martial arts.

Later, Anko Itosu developed 3 different versions of Rohai. The third has no crane stances that I can see myself, and it's the first version this is popularly practiced across many karate styles. From what I've seen only shito-ryu (and it's split-offs like Shukokai or Itosu-Ryu) practice all three Rohais. If you're a TKD or Tang Soo Do guy doing 'Lohai', it's probably Rohai Shodan.

 

[exile]

As others have said there are multiple versions of Rohai. The 'original', generally called Matsumora Rohai to distinguish it from the later versions, was practiced by Kosaku Matsumora, a Tomari-Te master of the late 19th century. Rohai is generally translated as "Vision of a Crane" and there are indeed some crane stances within Matsumora Rohai. On an interesting note, I've seen a few sets of Lohan Quan, and try as I might, I don't see more than the most superficial of connections... It's definitely frustrating to try and trace tode kata back to Chinese martial arts.

Later, Anko Itosu developed 3 different versions of Rohai. The third has no crane stances that I can see myself, and it's the first version this is popularly practiced across many karate styles. From what I've seen only shito-ryu (and it's split-offs like Shukokai or Itosu-Ryu) practice all three Rohais. If you're a TKD or Tang Soo Do guy doing 'Lohai', it's probably Rohai Shodan.

Stoneheart, do you happen to have a link to any vids or descriptions of the Rohai/Lohai Shodan kata? I'd really like to track down a good mnemonic aid... I'm learning that kata now and it is, well, probably the most challenging thing I've done so far in MA...

I was intrigued by the references to crane-like movements and stances you mentioned in Rohai so I looked around. I found this Shito Ryu site that has videos of lots of kata including Rohai.

http://www.shitokai.com/movies/matsumurarohai.php

ST, the version we do has some of those elements—a lot of the crane stances and the downard strikes—but it has a number of other elements, including `outstretched wing' stances with the hands in a kind of `bird-beak' configuration, and rapid stepping movements at 45º to the main line of the kata, that aren't in this version or any other I've been able to find on the web... quite frustrating, actually!

 

[stoneheart]

Stoneheart, do you happen to have a link to any vids or descriptions of the Rohai/Lohai Shodan kata? I'd really like to track down a good mnemonic aid... I'm learning that kata now and it is, well, probably the most challenging thing I've done so far in MA...

Exile, I practice a couple of Rohais. My favorite is the Matsubayshi version of Rohai. This Youtube is of Jim Sindt performing Rohai.

It's been floating around on the Internet for a few years now and you've probably seen it, but I think it's pretty true to how Shoshin Nagamine describes the kata in his book, The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do.

The version I believe you practice, I've never seen as a video on the internet. I do have some old training notes when I practiced with a Moo Duk Kwan sa bom nim, and I'll share those if you're interested. Give me a few hours to type them up. I'm afraid they're handwritten.

 

[exile]

Exile, I practice a couple of Rohais. My favorite is the Matsubayshi version of Rohai. This Youtube is of Jim Sindt performing Rohai.

It's been floating around on the Internet for a few years now and you've probably seen it, but I think it's pretty true to how Shoshin Nagamine describes the kata in his book, The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do.

The version I believe you practice, I've never seen as a video on the internet. I do have some old training notes when I practiced with a Moo Duk Kwan sa bom nim, and I'll share those if you're interested. Give me a few hours to type them up. I'm afraid they're handwritten.

Thanks for the pointers, stoneheart! Much appreciated. As for the notes, I would really feel bad for you to have to take that much time to type them out! I'm glad to hear that what I described doesn't sound completely extraterrestrial, at least.

There are some similarties between Moo Duk Kwand and Sang Moo Kwan interpretation of forms, so what you say about recognizing the version of Rohai I described makes sense. I've gotten intrigued by the fact Rohai seems to have so many different versions. Is that the case for other `classic' karate kata? I knew there were some divergences between Okinawan and Japanese versions, but it seems a bit extreme in the case of Rohai...

 

[crushing]

I watched the two Rohai videos posted so far and there are some similarities to the Nohai that we do. Maybe this is the way others on here do Rohai/Nohai?

 

[stoneheart]

Exile, work is intruding on my martial arts browsing. Please give me the weekend to post Rohai.

 

[exile]

Exile, work is intruding on my martial arts browsing. Please give me the weekend to post Rohai.

I know the feeling, stoneheart—and please, there's no rush—I greatly appreciate your efforts here (as will others I'm sure who are interested in this somewhat mysterious and intriguing kata—a major link, I suspect, with the Chinese side of Okinawan karate's lineage).

 

[Flying Crane]

It's my understanding that Fukien White Crane had a lot of influence on the development of the Okinawan arts in the 1700s and 1800s. I am not familiar with Fukien white crane aside from seeing a few videos of it, but from what I have seen, it seems pretty different from the video links of the Rohai that have been posted here. I'll try and find a link to a good Fukien video and post it, might make for some interesting comparison.

 

[Flying Crane]

Check these.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cU5CEfDLHPI&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nz7Dcx86TXA&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZtLgfru5PjM&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jkc4tGpPeuU&mode=related&search=

I don't know if these are good examples or not, I've never studied this method. But I think these might be interesting comparisons with the Rohai.

 

[exile]

It's my understanding that Fukien White Crane had a lot of influence on the development of the Okinawan arts in the 1700s and 1800s. I am not familiar with Fukien white crane aside from seeing a few videos of it, but from what I have seen, it seems pretty different from the video links of the Rohai that have been posted here. I'll try and find a link to a good Fukien video and post it, might make for some interesting comparison.

Thanks for the vids, Michael. The Rohai kata is most closely associated with Kosaku Matsumora, an Okinawan master roughly contemporary with Anko Itosu, who seems to have done some tinkering and repackaging of it, something that he apparently did with various semi-indigenous kata. In his capacity as an official of the royal Okinawan court, Itosue did spend time in China, and pretty clearly brought back some martial techniques directly from there, though I don't think it's too well known exactly which styles he studied while he was over there. Itosu's innovations in Matsumora's Rohai might have come back from China with him (or at least, the raw materials for it might have)... very little is clear about it, though, especially just where Matsumora got the kata from in the first place.

There are a number of versions of Rohai that you can see performed here, thanks to Victor Smith, one of our MT members. :asian: