Old-Style Challenge Matches?!?

[geezer]

Part of the reputation of Wing Chun comes from the fighting prowess of some of the great old masters. In the 1800s, Leung Jan and Chan Wah Shun were renowned for winning challenge matches. Much later, in the 1950s, students of Yip Man such as Wong Shun Leung made WC famous as a street-fighting style in Hong Kong. And, in the 1960s, Bruce Lee famously fought Jack Man Wong and through his celebrity as an action movie star made WC known to the wider world.

Today WC fans everywhere talk about these matches with great admiration, and reference them as proof that what we do is a highly effective fighting system in the real world, free of rules. Yet when such challenges erupt in modern times, such as when Emin Boztepe beat up William Cheung in the late '80s, we recoil and condemn these actions as the brutal behavior of "thugs" who degrade our art. Meanwhile, our vocal detractors among the armchair-MMA crowd belittle us for not sparring enough and not proving ourselves in today's world. Sometimes they actually have a point.

Anyway, I just got an email from a friend regarding a "challenge" issued between two rival WC groups in Spain and Bulgaria. The headman of the Bulgarian group, one Stefan Crnko apparently felt that the other group connected with the Spanish organization lead by Victor Gutierrez had insulted and challenged him. Crnko issued a counter challenge insisting on a bare knuckle, no rules fight without a referee. ...Well we all know that this is probably just another blast of hot air from both sides aimed at making some publicity for what they do. But my question is, if such a challenge were to actually take place, would it be good or bad for Wing Chun in general?

What do you guys think? Do such challenges demean Wing Chun, or ar they a rough way to once again prove it's relevance as a contemporary fighting art.

BTW-- you can check out clips of Victor Gutierrez and Stefan Crnko on Youtube. Personally, I think it would be a fight worth watching.

 

[WC_lun]

I don't think it really reflects on Wing Chun one way or another. I think it reflects more on the people involved.

 

[yak sao]

This age of litigation has allowed a whole crop of non fighters to emerge throughout the martial arts world, not just in wing chun.
Instead of having to back up their teaching/style/abilities with their fists, they back it up with threats of lawsuits.
I tend to find it refreshing to see a phony get his *** handed to him, and I think it would do a lot to weed out the charlatans if this kind of thing were happen on a more regular basis.

That said, I know that not everyone who teaches MA is a great fighter, they are content with running their school and quietly teaching and making a living doing so and that's fantastic. What I'm referring to are the obnoxious loudmouths who need to be brought down a few notches.

 

[geezer]

I tend to find it refreshing to see a phony get his *** handed to him, and I think it would do a lot to weed out the charlatans if this kind of thing were happen on a more regular basis... What I'm referring to are the obnoxious loudmouths who need to be brought down a few notches.

I don't know either of the guys involved in this particular conflict, but a friend who does assures me that both parties are pretty rough. Victor Gutierrez may have been accused of being a bit of a "loudmouth", but from what I've seen on youtube and heard from people who know, he can back it up. As for Stefan Crnko (pronounced Kurn-ko), he seems really tough too. Apparently he has done some MMA with mixed results. One clip I found showed him quickly beating the tar out of an opponent. A second clip showed him almost as quickly losing when he was taken to the ground and got mounted. He turned his back on his opponent (as a collegiate wrestler might do) and was immediately choked into submission. It was a surprisingly dumb move on his part, making me suspect that he didn't have much of an MMA background. (I mean, I know nothing about the sport, but I know that you don't want your opponent behind you!). I gather that he's much more of a stand-up, pugilistic fighter. In his "challenge" he referred to the "unrealistic" rules of sport MMA and insisted that he would only fight with no rules, no ref, on concrete or asphalt, with only eye and groin shots prohibited. I gather that liability laws may be different in Bulgaria.

 

[cwk]

I see nothing wrong with challenge fights as long as both parties seem to be fairly evenly matched and they both want to "have a go".
on the other hand, if it's just one person doing the instigating ( harassing) and only doing it to make a name for himself, for ego or just to be a bully, it's probably best just to let the law handle it or try to ignore it.
OR... you could wait till he's not looking and wrap six and a half points of wood around the back of his neck!! LOL

 

[KamonGuy2]

The interesting thing is that such challenges are not isolated to wing chun

Obviously the Gracies are a name that comes to mind as practitioners who openly welcomed any practitioner into their dojo to try to take them on.

Ive heard of other such challenges in karate. Other arts tend to do all their talking in competition

Where it gets nasty is when a persn just goes from school to school picking on Sifus who may not be as good. I might be better or worse than many instructors out there, but I never feel the need to go and challenge them! I used to get into a lot of confrontations from students/instructors of other schools (people with ego), but Ive mellowed in my old age lol

I think the Boztepe/Cheung thing had to be done as Cheung was making ridiculous claims at the time. The quote 'put your money where your mouth is' springs to mind...

My advice to anyone who has been challenged, is to simply shrug it off. I would never think an instructor is poor just because he doesnt want to fight

The old rooftop fighting from the 50s and 60s was mainly kung fu on kung fu. I believe that Ip Man advocated his students to go and start on the Westerners (sailors) who were causing trouble at the time, but I dont have much knowledge on how that went

 

[geezer]

The interesting thing is that such challenges are not isolated to wing chun... Obviously the Gracies are a name that comes to mind as practitioners who openly welcomed any practitioner into their dojo to try to take them on....

Where it gets nasty is when a persn just goes from school to school picking on Sifus who may not be as good. I might be better or worse than many instructors out there, but I never feel the need to go and challenge them!

I'm with you on this. But again, as cwk said, if both of them are ready to "have a go", I don't have any objection. So what would it prove? Not much, except who was the better fighter on a given day, and maybe that both of them truly believe in their art and themselves. I certainly wouldn't choose my sifu on the basis of fighting prowess alone. In fact I chose not to study under a guy who is (in my opinion) the best WT fighter in the US. Nothing against him, it's just that he would not be the best instructor for me... for many reasons.

 

[Steve]

I don't think it really reflects on Wing Chun one way or another. I think it reflects more on the people involved.

In a good way!!!!!

 

[Vajramusti]

I have been challenged several times in the past ... by 3 different sifus- none of them from Ip man wing chun. I shrugged them off saying in effect-ok- show me the principle involved or the money."Challenges" can have different meanings but real dueling to the best of my knowledge is prohibited by all States in the USA.
The old Hong Kong roof top fights were uneven in quality.. some good ones were not filmed
and one has to depend on observers reports.
One around 1967 involved a serious challenge between two different kung fu style schools...
one of them a wing chun school. Years ago I got a good report from one of the close observers.
The non wc school was shut down for a while and the representative apparently had considerable brain damage from the fight.

Nowadays-- there are issues about rules and the rules can make for differences in outcomes.

joy chaudhuri

 

[KamonGuy2]

Exactly. Some people have odd ideas about challenge matches and many sifus are very defensive or suspicious of people coming down from other schools

Ive always had an open door policy and anyone is welcome to watch. I dont chi sao with random strangers as it takes me away from teaching my students. If people prearrange to meet up, Im always happy to do some training. Sadly, many guys out there see any form of out of class training as a challenge which is a shame

In contrast, we had a guy come down to the BJJ (Croydon Kamon BJJ) last Thursday, who was from Brazil. He was a very humble and nice guy, and our instructor (who is also a humble guy) rolled with him. There was no ego involved and it was a pleasure to watch

I just wish kung fu could be that friendly sometimes!

 

[Vajramusti]

Exactly. Some people have odd ideas about challenge matches and many sifus are very defensive or suspicious of people coming down from other schools


I just wish kung fu could be that friendly sometimes!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It can be and sometimes it is.

joy chaudhuri

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

When we spar and roll, it's always in good fun; testing out parts and plugging holes in the defense.

Hard sparring is to put some adrenalin into it, yet safety is paramount, because hurt people can't train, and by definition, it is not very healthy.

It is always better, in my opinion, to go to places and make new friends, and have more people to play around with and learn from than to mess people up and increase the size of the list of people that want to f you up.

That list is too long already.

 

[KamonGuy2]

It is always better, in my opinion, to go to places and make new friends, and have more people to play around with and learn from than to mess people up and increase the size of the list of people that want to f you up.

That list is too long already.

My list includes :-

Squirtle from Pokemon
The Gummi Bears (yes all of them - that was a wild night and I regret what I did)
Alf (the alien)
Gilbert The Alien
Mickey Mouse
Big Bird from Sesame Street
Bert (not Ernie) from Sesame Street

Im thinking of taking them all on in a royal rumble which will be on PPV...

 

[Tez3]

My list includes :-

Squirtle from Pokemon
The Gummi Bears (yes all of them - that was a wild night and I regret what I did)
Alf (the alien)
Gilbert The Alien
Mickey Mouse
Big Bird from Sesame Street
Bert (not Ernie) from Sesame Street

Im thinking of taking them all on in a royal rumble which will be on PPV...

We're hoping to do an MMA, boxing and whatever else fight night for Army charities early next year we could get you a fight with one of the above then? However if you pick the Gummi bears you'll have to fight my daughter first for them! the rest you might have to fight the kids for!

I don't suppose the gentlemen involved in this challenge are Romanies by any chance? Both Spain and Bulgaria flag that up.