Old Masters/New Students

[RavenDarkfellow]

Hello everyone. I am an informal student of 9 years in the martial arts, and a yellow-belt in Tracey's Kenpo, a 5th-generation student.

I find myself frequently envying those of you who were able to train with the old masters, wondering what they're like, and wishing I could bask in the wisdom they could depart to me. Unfortunately, however, this is something I shall never know, as the old masters are very busy (especially in their moderate fame) and many are no longer teaching/dead (I'm not just talking about in Kenpo, by the way).

I was especially saddened to learn of Master Parker's passing, as I will now never get the chance to meet him, much less train under him. I am still young, and haven't the money to move somewhere to live near any of the Traceys to train under them, and I will likely never meet them either.

In a sense, I feel somewhat slighted in that I'll never be able to meet the old masters, the founders of our wonderful art (or of ANY of the established arts). I'm not saying that the modern "masters" or senseis aren't good enough, and I certainly mean no disrespect to my sensei-- he's a great instructor, and an incredible martial artist, and I have nothing but respect and deference for him. Yet, as most younger/newer martial artists, I won't have the opportunity to train with the "orriginals".

I guess I'd just like to know, what was it like learning from those masters? How did you meet them? Why did you choose them/ they choose you? Why is it that their arts stood out from all the others? Could you see their knowledge/wisdom/power in the way they moved? The way they acted?

I want to know everything about them. . . If anyone has personal experience with 1st to 3rd generation instructors (and if any of you ARE 1st-3rd generation instructors, don't post about yourself! ) I'd like to know what you learned from them, how they acted, what you saw about them that was really special. I'm just a curious person, and would really appreciate it.

 

[Darksoul]

-I guess I could see the "thrill" of training with the Masters. If I could go back over 400 years and train with Wong Long, the founder of Praying Mantis Kung Fu, I would be estatic beyond belief. But I'm content to be training with my Sifu and my Kung-Fu Brothers and Sisters. I may spend the time to think about training with the great martial artists of all time, but I shall certainly only spend a small amount of time indeed. Better to spend time training in order to emulate those masters. Though it would be interesting to hear some stories or pearls of wisdom...Welcome RavenDarkFellow, nice to have you here on MartialTalk.


A---)

 

[KempoShaun]

I guess I've been very lucky to be able to meet the founder of my main art of Shaolin Kempo/Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. I had the fortune of meeting Sijo Gascon in December, and I have the honor of testing in front of him sometime in the following months. I had the further pleasure of sitting down with Sijo and asking him all the questions about our art I've ever wanted too. The art I've recently started integrating into my system is Kempo Jutsu-Kai, founded by Professor "Kimo" Ferreira, and likewise, I got to meet him twice last year, and am actually testing in front of him this coming Friday. The other art that makes up my system is Wado-Ryu Karate, and sadly, I never got to meet Ohtsuka Sensei, but am honored enough to have met Suzuki Sensei, who is now considered by most to be the leading authority on Wado in the World. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, two out of three ain't bad

 

[Jonah]

Kenpo5th

I think I recall attending a seminar by Susuki Sensei in the mid to late 1980's over here in England when I was a teenager studying Wado. The most part of the experience was unfortunately wasted on me at the time due to my age. The one thing I did get from it was correct posture and breathing technique, which I still use today.

As I recall we spent a good half of a two hour seminar in a very low horse stance and my legs shook like a pneumatic drill.

The other thing I remember was a drill doing outward verical block (can't recall the wado term) holdiing wooden sticks with a block of concrete on the end - highly technical peice of equipment.

I also recall that the man had a certain 'presence' and you did feel something was kind of 'special' about him. Must have been something fairly strong for a spotty teenage yob to pick up on!!

Respectfully

Jonah

 

[Sam]

hm. I think I might understand what you mean.

The head of my studio is Tim Golby, who trained directly under Al Tracy.
Tim is older and in his group classes, unlike most of the other teachers, we go pretty slowly and its more of a thinking class, where he explains a new move and how and why and where it will work, and more importantly in my opinon, where it will not work. Then after talking for about 15 minutes, with everyone asking questions if we want, he jumps up and we do the move a WHOLE bunch of times in a row. Every week we do the techniques from the same group of techniques, and only one thing new will be introduced every once in a while. Tim is very set on his concept of being set on your technique, knowing what you will do and how you will react in a multitude of situations. When someone approaches you, knowing exactly what you will do before he gets there already wins you half the battle.

As Tim was Al Tracy's student, Al comes around every few months. I've only met him once, but in my opinon (no disrespect meant!) he is one strannnge puppy. He is VERY large, doesnt look nearly as old as he claims he is, and most of the time no one understood what he was talking about. When he talks he transitions from one idea to another without telling anyone, it takes a minute to realize he's not talking about what your talking about, and when you figure out what he IS talking about, he's moved on to a new subject. I personally think it would be very hard to learn from a teacher like that.

When he comes around, He'll teach a class to all the teachers at the studio, and according to my instructor, he talks about the history of the move and starts rambling on and after he leaves all the instructors have to get together and figure out just what it was he was trying to tell them.

So, I know Al Tracy is a phenomonal MA and worthy of our respect and all that good stuff, but honestly, after talking to him person to person (I didnt know who I was speaking with at the time) I'm glad for my instructors. Maybe he talks confusing because he's old, I don't know.

 

[Danjo]

hm. I think I might understand what you mean.

The head of my studio is Tim Golby, who trained directly under Al Tracy.
Tim is older and in his group classes, unlike most of the other teachers, we go pretty slowly and its more of a thinking class, where he explains a new move and how and why and where it will work, and more importantly in my opinon, where it will not work. Then after talking for about 15 minutes, with everyone asking questions if we want, he jumps up and we do the move a WHOLE bunch of times in a row. Every week we do the techniques from the same group of techniques, and only one thing new will be introduced every once in a while. Tim is very set on his concept of being set on your technique, knowing what you will do and how you will react in a multitude of situations. When someone approaches you, knowing exactly what you will do before he gets there already wins you half the battle.

As Tim was Al Tracy's student, Al comes around every few months. I've only met him once, but in my opinon (no disrespect meant!) he is one strannnge puppy. He is VERY large, doesnt look nearly as old as he claims he is, and most of the time no one understood what he was talking about. When he talks he transitions from one idea to another without telling anyone, it takes a minute to realize he's not talking about what your talking about, and when you figure out what he IS talking about, he's moved on to a new subject. I personally think it would be very hard to learn from a teacher like that.

When he comes around, He'll teach a class to all the teachers at the studio, and according to my instructor, he talks about the history of the move and starts rambling on and after he leaves all the instructors have to get together and figure out just what it was he was trying to tell them.

So, I know Al Tracy is a phenomonal MA and worthy of our respect and all that good stuff, but honestly, after talking to him person to person (I didnt know who I was speaking with at the time) I'm glad for my instructors. Maybe he talks confusing because he's old, I don't know.

That is one of the funniest posts I have read in a long time. Thanks.

 

[KenpoDave]

RDF,

Where are you located?

 

[Doc]

Hello everyone. I am an informal student of 9 years in the martial arts, and a yellow-belt in Tracey's Kenpo, a 5th-generation student.

I find myself frequently envying those of you who were able to train with the old masters, wondering what they're like, and wishing I could bask in the wisdom they could depart to me. Unfortunately, however, this is something I shall never know, as the old masters are very busy (especially in their moderate fame) and many are no longer teaching/dead (I'm not just talking about in Kenpo, by the way).

I was especially saddened to learn of Master Parker's passing, as I will now never get the chance to meet him, much less train under him. I am still young, and haven't the money to move somewhere to live near any of the Traceys to train under them, and I will likely never meet them either.

In a sense, I feel somewhat slighted in that I'll never be able to meet the old masters, the founders of our wonderful art (or of ANY of the established arts). I'm not saying that the modern "masters" or senseis aren't good enough, and I certainly mean no disrespect to my sensei-- he's a great instructor, and an incredible martial artist, and I have nothing but respect and deference for him. Yet, as most younger/newer martial artists, I won't have the opportunity to train with the "orriginals".

I guess I'd just like to know, what was it like learning from those masters? How did you meet them? Why did you choose them/ they choose you? Why is it that their arts stood out from all the others? Could you see their knowledge/wisdom/power in the way they moved? The way they acted?

I want to know everything about them. . . If anyone has personal experience with 1st to 3rd generation instructors (and if any of you ARE 1st-3rd generation instructors, don't post about yourself! ) I'd like to know what you learned from them, how they acted, what you saw about them that was really special. I'm just a curious person, and would really appreciate it.

Some of the "Old Masters" I have trained with and met: (essentially in the order I made contact with them)

Ark Yuey Wong – Five Animal
James Woo – Tai Qi
Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti – Splashing Hands
Hidetaka Nishiyama - Shotokan
Takiyuki Kubota – Shotokan
Gene Takahashi- Shotokan
George Takahashi - Shotokan
Ed Parker Sr. – Chinese/American Kenpo
Adriano Emperado - Kajukenbo
Tu’uamao Tuiolosega – Lima Lama
Tsutomo Oshima - Shotokan
Sea Oh Choi - Hapkido
Tom Carroll - Shotokan
Gene LeBell – Judo/Grappling

These are off the top of my memory at the moment that I consider masters at their craft. Of course there were many other notable people I knew or met as well. I met Mitose and watched Bruce Lee learn to kick, and bumped into the famous (or infamous) Bruce Tegner. The problem with going down this road is where you make the cut off. I also know or knew Lou Angell, (Goju Ryu) met Peter Urban, (Goju Ryu), Wally Jay, and many many others over the years.

Most of these people had a special quality of leadership about them, that made you want to be in their company and follow their lead. Some were very knowledgeable, and a few were not, but it really didn’t matter. They were all extremely charismatic.

My advice is to understand your history but not worship those who are no longer with us. Be thankful for the "masters" you have access to, and take advantage of every opportunity to learn from them.

In my own teaching I often speak of and quote Ed Parker Sr, my primary teacher and influence over my life. But one of my students one day outside of class said something that made me think. I was prasing Mr. Parker as I often do, and my student reminded me that he appreciated the connection with Ed Parker, but that I should put things into perspective from HIS point of view. He reminded me respectfully, that I was "HIS Ed Parker." As a teacher that carries a considerable amount of responsibility that I can never fulfill, but I will always being trying. Enjoy the teacher that does the same for you.

 

[Danjo]

I think Kubota teaches Gosuku Ryu, rather than Shotokan.

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Wow. Thats The List! The Golden West Coast Era.

Kubota came from Shotokan originally before forming his own style. I believe he did aikido and maybe judo also. I always wondered about Lefiti and Splashing Hands style.

Raven: if you had a time machine and could choose when and who to study with you might end up sorely dissapointed with your findings. I am sure twenty-thirty years from now someone will be asking the same questions about our present day artists. But it is interesting to kick around.

 

[Doc]

Wow. Thats The List! The Golden West Coast Era.

Kubota came from Shotokan originally before forming his own style. I believe he did aikido and maybe judo also. I always wondered about Lefiti and Splashing Hands style.

Raven: if you had a time machine and could choose when and who to study with you might end up sorely dissapointed with your findings. I am sure twenty-thirty years from now someone will be asking the same questions about our present day artists. But it is interesting to kick around.

"Back in the day" when Kubota was across the street from Hollywood High School, it was Shotokan. He an I were in an organization called AFISK. (American Federation of Independent Shotokan Karate), together (Founded by Gene & George Takahashi & Dr. Bernd Weiss), and he was present along with Grandmaster Ralph Castro, Soke Edwin Hamile from West Coast Shotokan, (another name I didn't recall), Ed Parker Jr. etc in 1992 when I received my 8th Degree. Back in the sixties there were only two legit "Karate" organizations, the JKA (Japanese Karate Association), and Nishiyama's AAKF (ALL American Karate Federation,) founded in 1961.

Kubota started his own organization later and he did indeed study Aiki-do, Ju-do, Ken-do etc., and ultimately created his own style of which he is now the grandmaster. Nishiyama Studied originally with Ginchen Funakoshi and with his own organization broke away from the JKA and had a major falling out with Oshima. Doesn't this have a familiar ring to it?

Anyway Nishiyama was located on Olympic Blvd. near downtown L.A. and Oshima was in Hollywood on Sunset, down the street from Jimmy Woo and the "California Chinese Martial Arts Association." Oh and while I'm remembering and name dropping I can't forget my old friend Bong Soo Han from Hapkido who later did a movie with Ed Parker called "Kill the Golden Goose."

In Southern California the martial arts community was broad and everyone trained with everyone else at one time or another. The martial arts capital of the world. Some coming here directly and many migrating from the "islands" to the mainland like Emperado, Parker, Leoning, Castro, Jay, Lefiti, etc. Southern California was dominated by the Japanese/Okinawa until Parker came along, and northern California was dominated by the already resident Chinese. Around 64 the Koreans made a move and began coming in with Sea Oh Choi opening the first Hapki-do school in the country in the "hood" on Jefferson and Crenshaw, which was not too far from the Parker school on 76th and Crenshaw. Man it was a great time to begin learning the "arts." Nobody cared what style you were. There were so few of us, everybody talked and worked out together on Thursday nights somewhere. Thursdays were considered "open" night at all schools where visitors could come in and train in forms, spar, or just hang out as long as you were from another school, and brought your gi with you.

Now if you visit a school, they try to hard sale and "close" a contract on you while some kid who has Carnation Milk on his breath wears an 8th and teaches kids with runny noses wearing black belts themselves. I guess it's all relative.

 

[Simon Curran]

The era you were just referring to, DOC, sounds more like I wish the martial arts world (or should I say industry) could be now...

 

[Danjo]

"Back in the day" when Kubota was across the street from Hollywood High School, it was Shotokan.

Ah So! I stand corrected. Excellent post BTW.

 

[Danjo]

Now if you visit a school, they try to hard sale and "close" a contract on you while some kid who has Carnation Milk on his breath wears an 8th and teaches kids with runny noses wearing black belts themselves. I guess it's all relative.

No it isn't. It was better then.

 

[The Kai]

Man

I am totally clicking my heels together, Nothing yet

Thanks for the memories Doc
Todd

 

[RavenDarkfellow]

Thanks for all of your wonderful replies and insights. I appreciate the time you've taken to reply.

KenpoDave>> I'm in Halifax, NS Why do you ask? (Just wondering if you're in the area or something like that.)

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

"Back in the day" when Kubota was across the street from Hollywood High School, it was Shotokan...

Now his Honbu is located in Glendale (Montrose way), just a few doors down from the best, and most under-rated taco place in the foothills.

Dr. Dave