Officer Disciplined After Threats

[MJS]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/29895162/

Thoughts on this? Just to add in, lets please avoid the anti-cop or bashing statements.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

 

[Andy Moynihan]

What do you want? Even those in uniform are cut from the same cloth as the rest of us, so every now and again you WILL get someone in a uniform who should never have been allowed to put it on. It's called "Life".

I am glad, at least, that he will be facing discipline and who knows what Moats & family will add on after the outcome of the incident.

So one way t'other, this particular person will get served.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think the officer's statements were unacceptable - however, in the age before dashboard video cameras, it was probably more common. As to his actions - the camera would reveal whether he drew his weapon and did not point it at the passengers, or whether he did (as claimed). I would think that pointing it at the passengers would have been out-of-line, but I do not know that department's policies.

As to the reason for the stop - seems legit. The man rolled through a red light. Granted that he had a good reason for doing so - but the officer could not know that. People will often say that they are on their way to the hospital, etc.

I don't believe in special treatment for celebrities, and the fact that the man's mother-in-law was actually dying at that time was immaterial.

However, the officer's statements were not what I could consider professional. That would be good for a couple days off without pay at the least.

 

[elder999]

“His behavior, in my opinion, did not exhibit the common sense, the discretion, the compassion that we expect our officers to exhibit,” Kunkle said.

Kind of says it all.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Kind of says it all.

I think that was said for the benefit of the media and public. Officers get lied to all the time about the reason why a person rolled a stop or was speeding. It's common. Officers can't just take someone's word for it.

Frankly speaking - a person who knew his mother-in-law was on death's door should probably have been at the hospital much earlier, don't you think?

 

[elder999]

Frankly speaking - a person who knew his mother-in-law was on death's door should probably have been at the hospital much earlier, don't you think?

Two things. One-they were in the hospital parking lot.

The other? My sister passed away last year. I was working out of Denver at the time. She got sick around Thanksgiving, was in and out of the hospital and supposed to be better, got sick again and went back into the hospital-I came back from wherever I was to Denver, drove down to Albuquerque, stayed two days, was told she was "getting better," drove back to Denver, was in Denver for two days, was told "better come back," drove back to Albuquerque (at slightly more than usual "Jeffspeed") and just made it for her passing. You don't ever know the day or hour, and you can't really camp in the hospital-especially if you live nearby. They probably got word at home, where they probably went to rest and eat, and were probably proceeding back to the hospital.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Two things. One-they were in the hospital parking lot.

The other? My sister passed away last year. I was working out of Denver at the time. She got sick around Thanksgiving, was in and out of the hospital and supposed to be better, got sick again and went back into the hospital-I came back from wherever I was to Denver, drove down to Albuquerque, stayed two days, was told she was "getting better," drove back to Denver, was in Denver for two days, was told "better come back," drove back to Albuquerque (at slightly more than usual "Jeffspeed") and just made it for her passing. You don't ever know the day or hour, and you can't really camp in the hospital-especially if you live nearby. They probably got word at home, where they probably went to rest and eat, and were probably proceeding back to the hospital.

OK, fair enough, I stand corrected. And my sincere condolences on your loss.

Let me ask this, then. What, in your opinion, should the officer have done?

 

[elder999]

OK, fair enough, I stand corrected. And my sincere condolences on your loss.

Let me ask this, then. What, in your opinion, should the officer have done?

I dunno, escort them into the hospital to verify, maybe? I've gotten out of many tickets for much less.....

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I dunno, escort them into the hospital to verify, maybe? I've gotten out of many tickets for much less.....

Well, I can understand why people would think that - and in this case, if they really were in the hospital parking lot at the time...perhaps. But really, you may not believe this, but it is SUCH a common excuse - should the police be in the business of escorting liars to hospitals (because most of them are liars) for the small percentage that are telling the truth?

Compassion is a good thing. Unfortunately, police are used to being lied to.

 

[elder999]

But really, you may not believe this, but it is SUCH a common excuse - should the police be in the business of escorting liars to hospitals (because most of them are liars) for the small percentage that are telling the truth?

Compassion is a good thing. Unfortunately, police are used to being lied to.

So that's enough to make everyone a liar?

Kunkle said the video showed that Moats and his wife “exercised extraordinary patience, restraint in dealing with the behavior of our officer.” “At no time did Mr. Moats identify himself as an NFL football player or expect any kind of special consideration,” Kunkle said. “He handled himself very, very well.”

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So that's enough to make everyone a liar?

It's enough to not treat everyone as a truth-teller.

The police deal with the public, and mostly with the segment of the public that tells lies and breaks laws. They get lied to more or less constantly, and it colors their view of the world. That's not a good thing, but I don't know what the alternative is.

 

[Archangel M]

So that's enough to make everyone a liar?

What states need to do is create a law that makes it a crime to lie about the reason for the offense. If I have to put up with wasting my time escorting every car stop or having to verify the story of every person that said they were speeding due to a dying relative, sick child, pregnant wife, etc...then they should be taking a trip to the pokey when I find out they were lying. All that happens now is that they get the ticket they were deserving of in the first place.

PS- I dont suggest officers "escort" people either. Id rather they put the person in the police car and drive them themselves. Otherwise what happens is the cop gets to witness an accident and then get sued.

 

[Archangel M]

Hmmm..car runs a red light. Refuses to stop for a 60 sec chase (which seems MUCH longer when you are in it not knowing whats going on). Woman exits immediately so cop draws his weapon (nothing wrong there IMO although its being made to appear wrong). Apparently someone WAS sent into the hospital to verify the story. I wouldnt just let the occupants run off trusting their story either. The only issue I see is how it was handled after it was discovered that the drivers story was legit. IMO this is a big deal because this is a football player. And the officers "customer service" habits.

PS-the ONLY people exempt from the vehicle and traffic laws are cops and emergency responders in the performance of their duties and even then they are liable if they drive in a reckless manner. All others are NOT exempt...even when their relatives are dying in the hospital.

 

[jks9199]

The officer used crappy discretion and judgement. The driver contributed very slightly by arguing.

Cops get lied to all the time. I even had one guy go so far as to urinate on himself to prove why he was driving so fast -- except he passed 4 places that I would have stopped to take a leak myself. But cops are supposed to be able to assess and use good judgement. This officer didn't. It's that simple.

Some people are accusing him of racism. There's not enough present to make that accusation; I rather suspect he would have acted much the same if it were a large white guy with similar attitude. My viewings of the video show me someone offended that a driver would argue with him; he was so focused on the traffic violation that he wasn't using any judgement. And the only reason I throw the size of the guy in is because the officer did reportedly draw his pistol -- which he's justified doing if he feels that the guy he's facing is dramatically stronger than him or otherwise poses a huge threat.

Like I said; the bottom line is simple. The officer used crappy judgement, and made no effort to listen to or understand the driver's situation.

 

[Archangel M]

Agreed JKS...I think that the refusal to stop probably had the officer a bit jacked up. The story plays it down to "only 60 seconds". But people dont realize what runs through a cops mind when the person refuses to stop. And to top it off everybody bailed out of the car as he was pulling up. Here, the hospital probably should have been a clue that perhaps someone in the car was hurt or in an emergency. However I dont think that the officer did anything illegal or probably even outside of departmental policy. He even sounded pretty professional in his dealing with the operator at the end of that video saying that "if you would have stopped immediately and told me what was going on I probably would have let you go". It would be interesting to see how their PBA (if they have one) responds to the investigation.

 

[jks9199]

Yep; I got called into the sergeant's office one day for speaking rather sharply to a woman who was taking her kids to TKD class. The fact that she rolled several stop signs, and I followed her for several blocks, with lights and sirens, and she only stopped when she parked to drop the kids off -- and hadn't noticed me... Nah, details. Probably only lasted a minute or two... but that's a LONG minute when you're the one wondering why this car won't stop.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Let's all say it together, class:


"There is NO SUCH THING as a "routine traffic stop".

 

[Archangel M]

Refer to the Chris Rock training video:

STOP IMMEDIATELY

 

[jks9199]

PS-the ONLY people exempt from the vehicle and traffic laws are cops and emergency responders in the performance of their duties and even then they are liable if they drive in a reckless manner. All others are NOT exempt...even when their relatives are dying in the hospital.

And emergency responders aren't even exempt from all of them. Most states are like Virginia; there is a list of what we are allowed to do, providing that we are operating lights and siren. No lights, no siren... not an emergency vehicle operating under emergency conditions.

(Those seven are:

1. Disregard speed limits
2. Disregard stop signs/signals with due regard to safety,
3. Stop or park anywhere
4. Disregard regulations on turning vehicles
5. Pass at an intersection
6. Pass slow moving or stopped vehicles by going to the left over the solid yellow line
7. Pass on the right, including leaving the roadway.

See VA code 46.2-920, and look at how often phrases like "due regard for safety" or "without endangering life or property" crop up in the formal wording. And this nice little sentence: Nothing in this section shall release the operator of any such vehicle from civil liability for failure to use reasonable care in such operation.)

 

[Archangel M]

10-4. Your code is very similar (almost identical as a matter of fact) to mine.

The case of that State Trooper (cant recall the state) comes to mind. The one who lost his job and probably his livelihood from now forward due to an accident that killed another driver. He was operating at speeds in excess of 100mph responding to an accident when he lost control. He was found liable and charged criminally as I recall.