Offensive joint lock throwing
- Thread starter shesulsa
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After training for my first black in hapkido, I started to study Ed Parker's American Kenpo. In hkd, we did joint locks, but only in the abstract. We never would do alot of locks against weapons in flight because it's difficult to pull a punch or kick out of the air and control an opponent unless he's pitifully unskilled (try doing a joint lock on a golden-gloves boxer, for instance!). In kenpo, we use multiple strikes as a preamble to throws and joint locks. For instance, we may parry a right punch, strike the ribs, roundhouse kick the groin, and then lock the wrist or shoulder into a lock or breaking throw, drop the opponent and then kick them several time after the hit the ground. Ed Parker did not care for joint locks as an end to themselves because they tend to immobilize one's hands and leave one vulnerable to attack by multiple opponents.
American HKD
Brown Belt
Greetingskenpohack said:
I would NOT call Ed Parker an "authority" on joint locks.
Kenpo's good with hand strikes, not known for anything else.
So the fact that a non-joint locking expert never got comfortable using them means nothing as to thier effectiveness compared to someone who has mastered them.
Also most BJJ stylists have a poor working knowledge of stand-up Jujutsu/Hapkido etc. They work great in offense if you know how to use them!
A 1st dan in HKD such as yourself has just learned the basics not mastered the system in the least, so when you say you can't use them on the ground or for offense it doesn't surprise me.
No offense just having trained many BB in HKD I know thier general skill level, also many HKD curriculums in HKD don't teach offense until 2nd dan.
sksk
Yellow Belt
greetings,
I agree that offensive joint locks work, many people don't understand the proper way to enter, so they believe that the only way is to batter a person into submission before locking them. Most classical jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and hapkido systems have a wide variety of offensive locks.
George
I agree that offensive joint locks work, many people don't understand the proper way to enter, so they believe that the only way is to batter a person into submission before locking them. Most classical jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and hapkido systems have a wide variety of offensive locks.
George
pete
Master Black Belt
obviously your experience with Ed Parker's work is severely limited. After his death, the art has splintered based on the strengths and desires of Mr Parker's senior students. Some are extremely well versed in applying joint locking into the American Kenpo system, while others do not. Two that DO are Larry Tatum and David German.American HKD said:
Also the concept raised by 'kenpohack' of the joint locking not being the end unto themself, is a point also made Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming during his Chin Na seminars, and there is little doubt the Dr Yang is the one of the foremost authorities on the subject today.
pete
M
Mike-IHF
Guest
Kenpohack,
I find this kind of a contridiction. The reason being is Joint locks in to throws, or takedowns are quick. In reference to Hapkido joint locks and throws, it comes from an art that is based on multiple attackers. Therefore most of the throws, you are actually throwing them into the other attacker/s. Or if there are not any other attackers, then they just hit the ground, or whatever surroundings are there. By doing a parry, right punch, strike the ribs, a roundhouse kick, then going for the joint lock. Sorry to say, but that is not good defense when refering to multiple attackers. Infact while your tied up with the one to accomplish all those strikes and kicks, you will already bye taken out by the other attacker/s.
I find this kind of a contridiction. The reason being is Joint locks in to throws, or takedowns are quick. In reference to Hapkido joint locks and throws, it comes from an art that is based on multiple attackers. Therefore most of the throws, you are actually throwing them into the other attacker/s. Or if there are not any other attackers, then they just hit the ground, or whatever surroundings are there. By doing a parry, right punch, strike the ribs, a roundhouse kick, then going for the joint lock. Sorry to say, but that is not good defense when refering to multiple attackers. Infact while your tied up with the one to accomplish all those strikes and kicks, you will already bye taken out by the other attacker/s.
American HKD
Brown Belt
Greetingspete said:
I'm no kenpo expert but know a few very well, they admit HKD locks are indeed more comprehensive then Kenpo ( BTW that comes from one of Larrys 5th dans who also a HKD master)
Locks must be used in contexts, however the more you specialize in it the better you get at using them.
I think that's what you mean and I agree
Brad Dunne
Brown Belt
I'm curious about Hapkido approaches from an offensive standpoint for joint lock throwing and joint breaking - could anyone give me examples, please? (Quote)
Hapkido offense vs defense is defined by posture. Meaning that the vast majority of the time a HKD proponent will be in a defensive stance/posture. This is usually hands open and up in front of him/her, in what is defined as the non-threat position. From this position, one can parry an attack and if skilled enough, grab and go directly into a lock, throw or break. If one does not feel that confident with a straight out grab, then an offensive strike (practicioners choice) is delivered and then immediately goes into the grab/lock/throw or break. The major difference from reading the Kenpo counter is that they want to go into the "barrage response", which from my understanding is a major part of Kenpo's foundations. With the amount of strikes delivered, it is unlikely that they would ever get to or even need the grab/lock/throw etc. Hapkido on the other hand uses a single distractor (most of the time), to allow them to enter into a throw etc. The time element between the strike and the grab is very, very quick. In fact it becomes one continues flowing move. Thus a Hapkidoin goes from defense to offense in the blink of an eye.
I'll attempt an example: Right hand punch being delivered. Hapkidoin makes an inside block with the leading open left hand, at the same time he pivots on the lead left leg, and either delivers a low kick to the attacker leg and grabs the attacker wrist with his right hand. From this position several options are available, but one will suffice for our example. Now depending on how the wrist is grabbed, will dictate what comes next, although there would be time to make an adjustment. We'll just use the overhand grip (your right hand thumb is underneath the attacker wrist). You now turn the attackers wrist into their body. If small handed then you can use your left hand to assist. Now as you are turning the attacker wrist into his chest, you now pivot on your right foot 180+ and the attacker goes either a$$ over tea kettle or the wrist and shoulder go pop. Either way it just became a bad day for the bad guy. Hope this of some help with your question.
Hapkido offense vs defense is defined by posture. Meaning that the vast majority of the time a HKD proponent will be in a defensive stance/posture. This is usually hands open and up in front of him/her, in what is defined as the non-threat position. From this position, one can parry an attack and if skilled enough, grab and go directly into a lock, throw or break. If one does not feel that confident with a straight out grab, then an offensive strike (practicioners choice) is delivered and then immediately goes into the grab/lock/throw or break. The major difference from reading the Kenpo counter is that they want to go into the "barrage response", which from my understanding is a major part of Kenpo's foundations. With the amount of strikes delivered, it is unlikely that they would ever get to or even need the grab/lock/throw etc. Hapkido on the other hand uses a single distractor (most of the time), to allow them to enter into a throw etc. The time element between the strike and the grab is very, very quick. In fact it becomes one continues flowing move. Thus a Hapkidoin goes from defense to offense in the blink of an eye.
I'll attempt an example: Right hand punch being delivered. Hapkidoin makes an inside block with the leading open left hand, at the same time he pivots on the lead left leg, and either delivers a low kick to the attacker leg and grabs the attacker wrist with his right hand. From this position several options are available, but one will suffice for our example. Now depending on how the wrist is grabbed, will dictate what comes next, although there would be time to make an adjustment. We'll just use the overhand grip (your right hand thumb is underneath the attacker wrist). You now turn the attackers wrist into their body. If small handed then you can use your left hand to assist. Now as you are turning the attacker wrist into his chest, you now pivot on your right foot 180+ and the attacker goes either a$$ over tea kettle or the wrist and shoulder go pop. Either way it just became a bad day for the bad guy. Hope this of some help with your question.
Get some,Georgia!
OK then..offensive joint-locking compared to Mr. Parker's Kempo,eh?
My HKD's take..same/same/different.
Stuart,along with Mike,brings up the best point,context.
Depending on the situation a HKD-in really wouldn't want to stand there trying to hit the assailant 5 times then go for a lock or throw. Can we? Yes,but our way of striking is used almost exclusively in a "less is more" approach. Think not so much speed as proper placement,ya see? One,maybe two strikes if absolutely needed to set up/create some time and space,on to a throw or break.."Next"
As far as tying the hands up with "moving" joint locks..this is an extremely subjective approach. I would say only advisable and to be trained as in an arresting situation or for use as an "human sheild",to be used only for a fraction of a second to establish a more secure position or hold. I think it would be safe to say that a larger percentage of Hapkidoin train for the shortest encounter time possible. Get in,get it done,get out.
Good subject for some pic's,eh? Hmmm.
As far as "grabbing or snatching a punch out of mid-air" goes..Who does this? Also a good subject for some pic's. Body shifting and re-direction.
OK then..offensive joint-locking compared to Mr. Parker's Kempo,eh?
My HKD's take..same/same/different.
Stuart,along with Mike,brings up the best point,context.
Depending on the situation a HKD-in really wouldn't want to stand there trying to hit the assailant 5 times then go for a lock or throw. Can we? Yes,but our way of striking is used almost exclusively in a "less is more" approach. Think not so much speed as proper placement,ya see? One,maybe two strikes if absolutely needed to set up/create some time and space,on to a throw or break.."Next"
As far as tying the hands up with "moving" joint locks..this is an extremely subjective approach. I would say only advisable and to be trained as in an arresting situation or for use as an "human sheild",to be used only for a fraction of a second to establish a more secure position or hold. I think it would be safe to say that a larger percentage of Hapkidoin train for the shortest encounter time possible. Get in,get it done,get out.
Good subject for some pic's,eh? Hmmm.
As far as "grabbing or snatching a punch out of mid-air" goes..Who does this? Also a good subject for some pic's. Body shifting and re-direction.
American HKD
Brown Belt
GreetingsPaul B said:
Very good Paul :asian:
So many people are here are comming from so many different backgrounds it's hard to have some common ground. The HKD guys here understand, the other MA may do a few locks but don't really get it.
You'll all have to spend a few years in HKD to understand how things really work, the way kenpo or others art veiw and use locks is not on par with locking specialists.
Let me explain;
Last night a was at my gym and a JKD Instr was teaching a class, doing trapping-eye poke to an outside wrist lock. The trapping was Ok but when it got to the wrist lock all I can say is my yellow belts can do it better and this guy's a legit JKD Instr 20 years or more in the system.
Why? Poor grips, wrong positioning for any power/leverage, and in right line of the other hand punching you in the face, etc.
A trained expert can see the all the mistakes, JKD guy an his students probably thought it was good.
pete
Master Black Belt
absolutely~American HKD said:
let me begin by saying that i know as little or less about hkd as you do about ep kenpo, and therefore will not make comparative statements. mr rosenberg, please do not see this as being directed with any disrespect to your art or your mastery of it. i realize that when i write in this forum, i am writing as a guest in the house of hkd.American HKD said:
i do disagree with your evaluation and generalization of kenpo relative to joint locking, which we refer to as chin na skills. as i said earlier, since the passing of ed parker, much splintering has occurred within the art based on the strengths and directions of his senior students. this has made kenpo today an art which is based on individualistic interpretations. some have specialized in developing chin na skills, while others have not, and others are somewhere in between. as you stated above, the more you specialize in it the better you get at using them.
the kenpoists who have specialized 'get it' and have developed understanding and expertise that is 'on par' with anyone.
with honor and respect,
pete landini
American HKD
Brown Belt
Greetings,pete said:
I hear what you're saying and I guess I'm thinking of Traditional Kenpo V.S. compared to what you're saying people have picked up on Chin Na etc.
They could be good at Locks and stuff.
Dan G
Green Belt
This gentleman is from a karate rather than a Hapkido background, but he has some very interesting things to say about the offensive use of joint locks in traditional karate forms. In essence he says that if you go for a soft tissue strike to groin throat or eyes you can, if your hand is grabbed, initiate a lock. As the initiative remains yours it is essentially offensive. Check out some of these articles.shesulsa said:
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp
I attended one seminar by Iain Abernathy a few years back and learned loads, very nice person and as far as I can tell he is very knowledgeable in his art. :asian:
Respectfully,
Dan
