No contact training

[Headhunter]

So I don't want this to sound like sour grapes because it's genuinely not I'm posting this simply for discussion. But a friend of mine who trains at my old kenpo school told me they've started a new thing now where they don't do any techniques on the body everything is done in the air. So basically it's all forms, then doing technique in the that would be every class. Since they never do fitness, or pads or sparring either.

I just wondered what people's opinions on it are. I won't say mine either way for now as I don't want to look biased since it genuinely not that I just want to know what people think.

 

[jobo]

So I don't want this to sound like sour grapes because it's genuinely not I'm posting this simply for discussion. But a friend of mine who trains at my old kenpo school told me they've started a new thing now where they don't do any techniques on the body everything is done in the air. So basically it's all forms, then doing technique in the that would be every class. Since they never do fitness, or pads or sparring either.

I just wondered what people's opinions on it are. I won't say mine either way for now as I don't want to look biased since it genuinely not that I just want to know what people think.

well he is learning dancing, and there is nothing at all wrong with that, provided your not expecting to have any measure of fighting skills at the end of it.
at the very least there needs to be some accuracy and power work on pads or a bag and some interaction with another person in drills even if they don't want to spar with any force

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There are legitimate arguments to be made on either side of the issue of how useful solo forms are for martial arts training. However even most of those who strongly believe in their value will tell you that you can't develop combative ability just by doing solo forms exclusively.

Based on my own experience, I don't think it's practical to develop combative functionality without working with other bodies.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So I don't want this to sound like sour grapes because it's genuinely not I'm posting this simply for discussion. But a friend of mine who trains at my old kenpo school told me they've started a new thing now where they don't do any techniques on the body everything is done in the air. So basically it's all forms, then doing technique in the that would be every class. Since they never do fitness, or pads or sparring either.

I just wondered what people's opinions on it are. I won't say mine either way for now as I don't want to look biased since it genuinely not that I just want to know what people think.

I can't see how that will ever produce effective results. Most students aren't good at imagining/envisioning their opponent early on, so they'll make significant errors they wouldn't make if they just had a partner - even a cooperative one..

 

[JR 137]

No contact leads to this -

Then again, technically they are sparring. I know it's a bit of a stretch to call it that.

 

[jobo]

I can't see how that will ever produce effective results. Most students aren't good at imagining/envisioning their opponent early on, so they'll make significant errors they wouldn't make if they just had a partner - even a cooperative one..

I can see considerable benefits in fitness etc from this and it seems more clubs are going down a limited contact/ no contact route, perhaps they attract a different clientele if they remove as much of the fighting element as possible, I've seen people get quite upset just holding a pad for others to punch as its a) scary and b) hurts a bit or maybe its an insurance/ liability thing.
there is a rise in boxercise which is really the same thing and kickboxing using a bag only, then there is no contact football and tag rugby as well. People just don't like pain I guess

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can see considerable benefits in fitness etc from this and it seems more clubs are going down a limited contact/ no contact route, perhaps they attract a different clientele if they remove as much of the fighting element as possible, I've seen people get quite upset just holding a pad for others to punch as its a) scary and b) hurts a bit or maybe its an insurance/ liability thing.
there is a rise in boxercise which is really the same thing and kickboxing using a bag only, then there is no contact football and tag rugby as well. People just don't like pain I guess

If it's for fitness only, that's fine - in fact things like Tae Bo have done a good job adjusting MA techniques to fitness. The club in question was never that in the past, so I doubt that's suddenly the goal of the students. Even if the goal was simply to enjoy Kempo and develop the techniques without thought of defense (preservation of the style, etc.), this would be a bad approach.

 

[Reedone816]

The worst part of no contact is that they cannot gauge technique vs effect.
You know like several school that claim their techniques are too deadly...

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[Gerry Seymour]

No contact leads to this -

Then again, technically they are sparring. I know it's a bit of a stretch to call it that.

They are, and this highlights the need for at least the senior folks in a school to be working with folks outside the school (whether in competition or in friendly sparring/training). These guys are all quite good against each other. I'm pretty sure I could put all of them on their butts without using a technique, and without any real risk of being injured. That's not a good thing - I'm not nearly so badass as to warrant that ability against an entire cadre of "advanced" students.

 

[hoshin1600]

"it is the art of fighting without fighting"

the only time i think this is acceptable is when you teaching 5 and 6 year olds.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The worst part of no contact is that they cannot gauge technique vs effect.
You know like several school that claim their techniques are too deadly...

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I don't know a single school that makes that as an overall claim (some will claim it of a small number of their techniques). And all of those that make that claim (or the more realistic "too dangerous" statement) still practice contact - many of them practice full-contact in some portion of their training.

 

[oftheherd1]

I have mentioned before, when I first studied it was TKD and contact was only allowed in blocking, and that was full contact. When sparring, kicks and punches were always to be under control and shy of touching. Control was strongly emphacized.

 

[Reedone816]

I don't know a single school that makes that as an overall claim (some will claim it of a small number of their techniques). And all of those that make that claim (or the more realistic "too dangerous" statement) still practice contact - many of them practice full-contact in some portion of their training.

That's the good schools. That's why i said schools not style, because I've seen several schools that near fraudulent in teaching, giving their students flowery talks about their student technique, without even once taught them spar, because the techniques are too dangerous.
They said something like, here you do this mid kick, you'll destroy their liver.
You do this open palm uppercut, you'll guaranteed a KO.
They makes contact, but really slow mo sparring, with no real impact, but like playing tag with our limbs, now i touch you, you lose.
In the end the student left with false sense of security, that when faced with real moving opponent all that techniques is not working like what their teacher told them.
I was one of them...

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[Charlemagne]

I don't have a problem with forms or even solo training. However, if you have removed all forms of contact from your training, you are living in a fantasy land in regards to martial arts. The first time any of these people have to use what they have been taught, they will be in for a rude awakening, particularly if the other person gets off the first shot. As the esteemed philosopher Michael Gerard Tyson noted, "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's the good schools. That's why i said schools not style, because I've seen several schools that near fraudulent in teaching, giving their students flowery talks about their student technique, without even once taught them spar, because the techniques are too dangerous.
They said something like, here you do this mid kick, you'll destroy their liver.
You do this open palm uppercut, you'll guaranteed a KO.
They makes contact, but really slow mo sparring, with no real impact, but like playing tag with our limbs, now i touch you, you lose.
In the end the student left with false sense of security, that when faced with real moving opponent all that techniques is not working like what their teacher told them.
I was one of them...

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Those are a bad lot. I've not run into any, myself.

 

[JR 137]

I don't know a single school that makes that as an overall claim (some will claim it of a small number of their techniques). And all of those that make that claim (or the more realistic "too dangerous" statement) still practice contact - many of them practice full-contact in some portion of their training.

That's us, along with a lot of others. During free-sparring, we don't...
Elbow the head
Punch the head (we'll quickly tap it to remind each other to keep the hands up)
Kick below mid thigh
Open hand strike
Strike the back/spine/neck

The risk of injuring classmates is too great. Even if the attacker has the best control, the defender can move the wrong way into it.

We do a ton of drills doing those things, but it's not allowed during free-sparring, and for good reason IMO. I've got better things to do than get my knee blown out or get elbowed in the head for the sake of more realistic training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's us, along with a lot of others. During free-sparring, we don't...
Elbow the head
Punch the head (we'll quickly tap it to remind each other to keep the hands up)
Kick below mid thigh
Open hand strike
Strike the back/spine/neck

The risk of injuring classmates is too great. Even if the attacker has the best control, the defender can move the wrong way into it.

We do a ton of drills doing those things, but it's not allowed during free-sparring, and for good reason IMO. I've got better things to do than get my knee blown out or get elbowed in the head for the sake of more realistic training.

Agreed. But do you have some parts of your training that are full contact?

For instance, I don't generally allow small-bone/small joint locks in sparring/randori (some are allowable, because they have a large range of motion). We drill those differently, and sometimes simply acknowledge them in randori when we know the person had started one then abandoned it. We absolutely allow open-hand strikes, within reason, just as we do most other strikes. Strikes to the neck and back of the head aren't allowed with any force. Throws are generally full-contact, though not full-force (so, no adding downward force to a hip throw, for instance). Strikes to the back are allowed, but pulled (if you get hit there in sparring, you messed up something awful).

So, some things are kept full-contact, others are sacrificed for safety. And students can call their own safety level. So, if a student doesn't want bruises that week, they can call for lighter sparring or limit targets as they wish.

 

[CB Jones]

Around 50% power to the head

75-85% power to the body

To keep things civil....little under 50% power to the groin.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To be able to let your fist to hit on an object to check whether your fist, wrist, elbow, shoulder, body can handle that counter force is a very important part of the MA training. Also MA involve timing, opportunity, angle, force, balance. Without "opponent", the timing, opportunity, and angle will lose that reference point.

Can you "single leg" or "hip throw" an invisible opponent? You can't.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So I don't want this to sound like sour grapes because it's genuinely not I'm posting this simply for discussion. But a friend of mine who trains at my old kenpo school told me they've started a new thing now where they don't do any techniques on the body everything is done in the air. So basically it's all forms, then doing technique in the that would be every class. Since they never do fitness, or pads or sparring either.

I just wondered what people's opinions on it are. I won't say mine either way for now as I don't want to look biased since it genuinely not that I just want to know what people think.

I would like to know what the teacher's goal is. If they are only teaching to learn forms then there's nothing wrong with that they are doing. None of the other conditioning, sparring, or impact drills are needed. Contact is only required if they are training for competitive sparring or self defense.