Ninja!

[Cryozombie]

What do you guys think????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genbukan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinenkan

 

[Don Roley]

The current grandmaster of virtually all of the independant ninja schools is Hatsumi Masaaki, who is listed as a living national treasure of Japan.

No, he's not.

 

[Cryozombie]

No, he's not.

That site has a link to edit bad enntries i think... you should go fix it!

 

[Don Roley]

That site has a link to edit bad enntries i think... you should go fix it!

And when the next moron comes along, it will be right back to saying how the ninja used nunchaku......... :idunno:

 

[Cryozombie]

And when the next moron comes along, it will be right back to saying how the ninja used nunchaku......... :idunno:

True true...

 

[Mon Mon]

What this i hear ninjas did not use nunchakus! Now i will suppose someone will tell me that ninja could not dissapear in a flash of light and had superhuman abilities.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

What this i hear ninjas did not use nunchakus! Now i will suppose someone will tell me that ninja could not dissapear in a flash of light and had superhuman abilities.

Now, hold on everyone. I just watched Enter the Dragon last night, which caught on tape...proving...Bruce Lee was a Ninja, and he used nunchaku. Didn't he study with Hatsumi?

 

[tshadowchaser]

First and formost I do not want to start any type of flame war with this question and I will lock this thread if the threads turns that way.
Now I do not study Ninjitsu and have little knowledge of the clans, so I ask out of ignorence, How many clans (groups) are there that the Japanese goverment regonise as ligit? How many different organisations are there in Japan claiming to teach this art?
Please keep this disscussion friendly and informitve. I realise there may be different opions on the subject.

 

[Cruentus]

I'd like to add to that question.

How many clans were there estimated to be in the past (don't have to be government recognized)?

Thanks!

 

[sojobow]

I'd like to add to that question.

How many clans were there estimated to be in the past (don't have to be government recognized)?

Thanks!

Speaking only as a student with some experience identifiable with the Koga System, I believe that there were 50 "Families." This is an estimate circa the 12th through 14th Centuries. The date (time period) of when the "systems of Ninjitsu" were established can change this estimate from one single family to the estimated 50 Koga Families depending upon how one defines "when established." The Date is in debate.

I am not sure, however, the number of "Clans" of the Iga. There may have been 3 "Clans" during this same time period. You will note the use of the two different terms of "Clans" for the Iga System and "Families" for the Koga System. There is a difference. It will be interesting to see estimates from other schools represented here.

 

[sojobow]

Now I do not study Ninjitsu and have little knowledge of the clans, so I ask out of ignorence, How many clans (groups) are there that the Japanese goverment regonise as ligit? How many different organisations are there in Japan claiming to teach this art?QUOTE]

You ask two excellent questions. The answer, however, may be a lot more difficult to enumerate. Some schools (in fact, quite a few) teach some type of combination of Ninjitsu and other styles/systems. As an example, some may teach Kenjitsu along with Ninjitsu or Kenjitsu-Jujitsu-Ninjitsu. I'm not sure if you want to include schools teaching (example again) 80 percent other arts and 20 percent Ninjitsu so someone researching to answer your questions will, most likely, have to have some clarifications from you regarding whether or not you wish to have information on all schools regardless the percentage of Ninjitsu included in there curriculums or whether you are only interested in those schools teaching 100 percent Ninjitsu.

Schools listed as 100 percent Ninjitsu will be few compared to the number teaching Ninjitsu in combination with other arts. I too, will greatly appreciate reading responses to your excellent questions as I have asked, in other Forums, for the name of the Japanese sanctioning organization so that I can ask them a shortlist of questions. You may also be correct in that you may - and, most likely will - get a few flames during revelation. I hope not.

===================================================

As a postscript, and no response is necessary, I would wish that we would also be more clear on subjects like Ninjitsu Weapons. My thought is that most posters on the subject are actually correct in that we debate in both the present and past-tense. A Shinobi in 1300 a.d., may not have used Ninchuks or a curved blade (the past). However, a modern (present) Shinobi will have trained in just about every type of weapon imaginable. The Past involves us having to hypothesize quite a bit. The present, we can readily discern. As weapons developed, so does the weapons base of the Shinobi. I don't believe we should be in a stagnant mind. Even today, some schools teach what might be called "the old ways." Some schools teach the use of nightvision, WMD and digital weapons. It is still Ninjitsu nonetheless.

 

[Don Roley]

Now I do not study Ninjitsu and have little knowledge of the clans, so I ask out of ignorence, How many clans (groups) are there that the Japanese goverment regonise as ligit? How many different organisations are there in Japan claiming to teach this art?

The goverment does not really take sides per se in the issue anymore than the American goverment recognizes "legit" Karate styles in the states.

It would be perhaps better to ask what groups/orginizations/teachers are known to the Japanese.

Quite simply put, of all the "ninjutsu" groups on the internet the only ones that are known in Japan are the ones that link back to Hatsumi. Pick up a book on ninjutsu history in Japan and they will all say that the Koga ryu, etc, all died off a long time ago. Ask people like Frank Dux and Ashida Kim to prove they had a real teacher and you will get only excuses from them. The Japanese martial arts community knows of no one on the internet who trains in Japan.

Maybe there are folks in Japan training without telling anyone else. I know there are groups tring to revive and recreate some of the styles. They tend to be kind of like Star Trek fanatics with shuriken. But I see no reason why a person should keep Japan unaware of their existence while opening up dojos in North America if they actually came from Japan.

Maybe the guys who write books, make movies, have web sites, etc really do have a reason that relates to secrecy as to why they can not show proof that they actually had training. I doubt it. The simplest explination is that they are lying.

Historically, there were not many styles of ninjutsu when compared to sword styles. And the definition of "ninjutsu" is not set in stone like you may think. The Haguro sect of shugendo was pressured by the local warlord to pick up stories and information as they made pilgrimages through other territories. No mention in any source that they snuck around like they do in the movies- just picking up what they could as they walked through other regions. Some folks call them ninja, others do not. So it should not be surprising to hear that the list of schools is estimated at between about 75 to about twice that.

In some cases, schools that were in danger of dying out were absorbed by others, with their curriculum becoming a small part of the absorber. The need for ninjutsu really fell during the 200 plus years of peace in the Edo period. They still cut each other up with swords, but the number of people who seriously studied swordsmanship fell so much that there were frequent commands from the goverment for the samurai to keep up their practice. So the styles that were not absorbed (like the Togakure ryu seems to) just died out in a wimper due to lack of need or interest.

Again, no one outside of the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan are known as ninjutsu schools for more than one generation in Japan.

 

[Cryozombie]

Hey Don,

I'm curious...

Do you know of any styles of Japanese martial arts outside of the Takamatsu-den that still teach (legitimately) "Ninja" along with their regular curriculum, or is it pretty much relegated to the Bujinkan, genbukan, or jinenkan?

 

[Don Roley]

Do you know of any styles of Japanese martial arts outside of the Takamatsu-den that still teach (legitimately) "Ninja" along with their regular curriculum, or is it pretty much relegated to the Bujinkan, genbukan, or jinenkan?

There are schools like the Katori Shinto ryu who teach "ninjutsu" as part of their studies- but they would not be called a ninjutsu school. They would not appreciate the term either since what they do is not the same as a semi-specialty school like the Togakure.

If I ever find another ninjutsu school outside of the Takamatsu den it would be a great find for comparison and contrast. I have many jujutsu, kenjutsu, etc tapes, have taken seminars and been to demonstrations of these schools just o see what else is out there. But I have yet to be able to do that with a "ninjutsu" school. At least one known in Japan and not the product of some fraud's imagination. Even the Katori Shinto ryu does not teach their version to anyone that has not trained for years AFAIK.

But if I ever do find one, please understand I may not give the name on line. I would probably tell several Bujinkan members and we could go see it and contrast it. But seeing how many people use Fujita Seiko as part of their made up lineage, it would be giving them too mcuh to let them know of a school they could claim to be part of in Japan.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Interesting replys, thank you.
I am learning with each post.
:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

You will note the use of the two different terms of "Clans" for the Iga System and "Families" for the Koga System.

Would someone enlighten me as to the difference?

IS Hatsumi Masaaki recognised as a national treasure in Japan? If so would this not say that the goverment reconise his schools as ligit?

 

[Don Roley]

Hatsumi is not a living national treasure. He did recieve a very respectable award from the Imperial Household Agency for his work in introducing an aspect of Japanese culture to people outside the country. There is a difference.

So you can say that he has won an award with a bit of investigation into him by the Japanese goverment. But Living National Treasures are very rare and Hatsumi s not one of them.

 

[Frank Anford]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-kan

I didn't think that Bujinkan was an "X-Kan", I always thought that folks that left the Bujinkan were X-Kans.

 

[sojobow]

You will note the use of the two different terms of "Clans" for the Iga System and "Families" for the Koga System. Would someone enlighten me as to the difference??

Very basic in that Koga's seemed to believe that the art is passed within direct family members. Husband taught the two kids as the wife had already been taught by her father and mother. No need of ranks as there is literally only father and mother = (teacher) and children = student. On assignments, all 4 were one. No need for Dojo's, organizations, institutions, certificates, etc. Training started very shortly after birth and all training was hidden from the public. The only "school" attended by a Koga was at the Yamabushi Temple -- something like going to church on Sundays unless you were adopted by the monks in which case, your 'family' included everyone at the Temples which was not uncommon.

Iga seemed to train and operate in a more "clan" relationship. Your clan may have included every family in the general neighborhood thus your clan may have included 5 families, 10 families, in-laws, 3rd cousins, 2nd cousins, grandparents etc. Thus, these 20 to 50 individuals would require organization, schools etc. I'd rather those from the Iga side enlighten you on their system's development.

Each system seems to have produced some pretty good martial artist. You can imagine the strengths and weaknesses inherent to each system but one thing of interest is that each system came together when called.

Hope this helps in some way.

 

[Don Roley]

Sojobow,
I found your explination quite amusing. It reminded me of one of those bad ninja movies from Hong Kong. Care to give you sources so I can continue the laughter?

Who the heck are you quoting because no one seems to have asked the question in this trhead that you answered. It just seems you through that out to make a point and make yourself look like you know something and are an expert in it.

Of course, if you are embarassed to admit where you got it from, I will understand if you don't respond or give evasive answers.