Need help - trying to expand my martial arts

[Aleem]

Hey everyone,

I'd be grateful if I could get some help regarding cross-training into some other martial arts. Currently I'm studying WingChun but the contact level, sparring etc. are of a lower level than I'd like. This isn't yet the problem for me because I'm willing to spend a lot more time in the art.

However, there is very little - to nothing - as far as I've noticed, taught on clinchwork, takedowns, or groundfighting. I've found a few clubs and places in the area that deal with this, but I was wondering if anyone could advise me with some of the other arts on offer.

1) There's a place where they teach "sombo wrestling." Could anyone help me out with what this art/sport encompasses? Is it a comprehensive art? Would it hamper my wingchun training if I undertook it, or vice versa?

2) There is a free-fight club in my area ( www.cambridgefreefight.co.uk ). It competes in Vale Tudo tournaments and seems to have had great success. Can I ask, if I joined this place, how likely is it that I'll advance in a fairly comprehensive way in all ranges of fighting? I don't want a collection of isolated techniques taught - I personally need some basic guiding principles which won't confuse me too much. Does your MMA training give you this?

3) There is also a university Judo club and Jiu-jitsu club. How effectively could they help me with throws, locks, submission and groundwork?

Sorry about all the confusing questions - I've been thinking about all this for close to a month and its a real dilemma for me.

If I do join the MMA club, would I have to abandom my WingChun or could there be some complementary element in doing both?

If anyone could answer any questions, I'd be SO grateful - thanks very much,

Aleem.

 

[MJS]

Rather than answer each question seperate, I'll attempt to give you an overall explaination. First, I suggest that you take a look at all of the schools in your area and see what meets what you're looking for. Watch or take a class, talk to the students and instructor. Ultimately you are the one that will have to decide what suits you best.

BJJ or wrestling, namely Greco will offer you some excellent clinch work as well as the ground. You will find some great submissions with BJJ as well as Sombo.

As far as the techniques goes, one thing that you want to keep in mind, is that grappling is a progressive art. IMHO, you should have a good understanding of the various positions. Without position all of submissions in the world will mean nothing! How can you apply a submission if you can't hold the position? The positions are the foundation for everything else that will eventually come with time.

As far as cross training goes. I'm a big fan of it. I do suggest that you get a good foundation in a base art first before taking something else on, but everyone is different, so you may not have any problems. I think that anytime someone crosstrains or cross referrences another art, it will always be a benefit.

I hope that this was a help. Anymore questions, please feel free to ask! :supcool:

Mike

 

[arnisador]

Some sombo (a.k.a. sambo) is taught as a comprehensive art, but it's principally taught as a sport that's a cross between judo and wrestling. Search the Russian Martial Arts forum here for more info. My guess is it wouldn't hamper your Wing Chun (but I'm not an expert at either).

Vale Tudo is intended for MMA. You'll learn to transition between ranges. You'll get punching, kicking, and grappling. It'd likely be very hard training, but it's comprehenseive for MMA. Of course, you probably wouldn't get weapons training, mass attack training, and so on, because it's competition-oriented. As to guiding principles...much less so than some other arts. Wing Chun is actually very good for that.

Judo is excellent training for grappling, though sambo relies less on the gi (jacket only, no long pants) and Vale Tudo doesn't use it at all. Without knowing what type of jujutsu they do it's hard to comment on that, but it would likely be focused on locks and throws with a small amount of striking.

I don't think any of these would interfere with your Wing Chun training. Possibly the Vale Tudo would to a degree. You'll find yourself with any of these wanting to try a grappling move when sparring with someone, and that may be a no-no at the kung fu school.

My advice: Wing Chun is good. I wouldn't suggest you drop it. If it were me, I'd try the three grappling clubs, speak with the instructors, and pick my favorite. I've had one Vale Tudo seminar and have done some Judo; my knowledge of sambo comes from books. The Vale Tudo can be very effective and is comprehenseive. I personally like Judo and would probably add it or sambo to the Wing Chun, but that's just my preference. A Vale Tudo program would tie it all together for you in a much better way. If you take a few arts, you need to construct a mixed style for yourself! That can be fun, and ultimately we all create our own personal expression of what we've studied, but you may not be ready for that yet.

You might look also for a Jeet Kune Do school. They put a lot of focus on changing ranges. Boxing and Muay Thai might give you a more contact-oriented striking style, and don't overlook plain old wrestling for grappling, especially if you're still in high school or college and it's free.

 

[Aleem]

Thanks very much MJS and arnisador for your insight, very helpful things there.

As far as cross training goes. I'm a big fan of it. I do suggest that you get a good foundation in a base art first before taking something else on

As you both said, I should really try and get a good foundation in my primary art and then move along so I'll give that some good thought.

If you take a few arts, you need to construct a mixed style for yourself! That can be fun, and ultimately we all create our own personal expression of what we've studied, but you may not be ready for that yet.

That sounds fun I guess I'm just getting a bit impatient because there is simply so much at offer. The high impact training at this muay thai place or the really precise technical stuff at wingchun - or maybe judy to compete in the university or sombo... ARGHHH...

But thanks very much. Can I ask, at your clubs what kind of sparring and bag training you do? We do very little dynamic sparring and bag work. Mainly (thus far anyway, 8 months in) I'm still concentrating on forms, air-punching and things like that.

and don't overlook plain old wrestling for grappling, especially if you're still in high school or college and it's free

English schools are lazy as hell - I don't think there's a single school in the country that does wrestling at school... we do however, play rounders in our "physical education" lessons which is the softened up version of baseball, reserved for 3-4 year olds, if that counts as anything "physical."

 

[Marvin]

How close are you to Manchester?

 

[Aleem]

... about 2/2.5 hrs in a car - how come do you ask? you know these days i'm really dying to get some training partners or maybe even meet up with someone to have a couple of hours of training done with outside of a dojo ... are there any martialtalk meetups or anything like that happening around here?

 

[Marvin]

Hi Aleem, check out www.karltanswell.com, he is the U.K. regional director of the Straight Blast Gym. They may have group near you. They definitely will have some things that you can add to your game. And I have never trained with a more laid back group of people, speaking in general of SBG folks I have trained with.
Marvin

 

[Aleem]

Thanks very much for the info marvin,

If I get some time during these summer holidays I'll see if I can get down there for an intensive work-out; it looks like a good place. By the way, what's the difference between "submission grappling" classes and "bjj classes"? Is BJJ a sub-group of submission grappling? And that submission grappling is an amalgamation of submission and wrestling tactics derived from various MAs?

Thanks for the invot

 

[Aleem]

...woops I submitted that post before it was finished ... ummm how can I edit posts? I don't see an option anywhere around to do that.

Thanks,

Aleem

 

[MJS]

...woops I submitted that post before it was finished ... ummm how can I edit posts? I don't see an option anywhere around to do that.

Thanks,

Aleem

After you post, you should see a place where you can edit your posts. This feature however lasts only an hour from the time of your post. After that, you can't edit it.

Mike

 

[Marvin]

Thanks very much for the info marvin,

If I get some time during these summer holidays I'll see if I can get down there for an intensive work-out; it looks like a good place. By the way, what's the difference between "submission grappling" classes and "bjj classes"? Is BJJ a sub-group of submission grappling? And that submission grappling is an amalgamation of submission and wrestling tactics derived from various MAs?

Like a lot of things in the martial arts it depends on who you ask
I look at it as a type of submission wrestling; there are other types of sub. wrestling: sombo, shoot wrestling, judo, catch wrestling etc. Each style has a different approach to how they address their techniques, some are more strength based and some are more leverage based. And there are variations within each style as well. The common thread is that they work for positional dominance against a resisting opponent and try to end the fight with a choke, lock or pin.
Marvin

 

[Aleem]

I see what you mean marvin. Which category does BJJ fit into? The leverage-based side or the strength-based? I ask because strength is the one thing I'm severely lacking in ... SEVERELY.

Would you happen to know anything about jiu-jitsu as a self-defense style? I mean ... how comprehensive is it? What's the grappling, striking and blocking/parrying like?

I know those are very general questions, but its one of the arts that I'm considering doing at some point so I wondered. Does anyone here cross-train with jiu-jitsu as one of the arts?

Thanks

 

[arnisador]

I consider BJJ to be a form of submission wrestling, but yes, you'll get different answers from different people. Some people use the term 'submission wrestling' to refer to the grappling aspects of a Vale Tudo tpe of MMA system.

 

[Marvin]

Hi Aleem, the BJJ that I have been exposed to is more leveraged based. But strength and size are factors, thats why there are weight classes. Now in your post you want to know about "Jiu-jujutsu", do you mean Jap. Jiu-jutsu or Braz. Jiu-jutsu? I think BJJ is a great style for self defence, I can"t speak of JJJ, I have not trained in it.
Marvin

 

[Aleem]

I guess I was wondering about Japanese JJ as a system. By the way, does Brazilian Jiu-jitsu have any striking in it?

 

[arnisador]

I'd say that BJJ has no striking in it, but I'm sure you'd find someone who disagrees. The Gracies do have a BJJ for Self-Defense book out.

Many instructors will say "and then you could punch him" about, say, a mounted position, but may not teach how to punch.

As to Japanese jujutsu, it varies. Usually striking is an underemphasized part of the system, and there are certainly effective styles of it out there.

 

[Marvin]

Aleem, as far as striking, I separate BJJ into 4 areas

1. Gi
2. No gi
3. Vale Tudo (with strikes)
4. Self Defense

Same art, different intents and purposes

Marvin

 

[Aleem]

Hi,

Marvin, is Vale Tudo a style of its own, or is it a competition for which BJJ has been modified? Or, if it is a style, has BJJ had to modify for it all? Thanks for the info.

Arnisador - as a matter of personal opinion - and for you too Marvin - if you were to combine an art alongside with an MMA school training (which gives Vale Tudo lessons, sub-wrestling lessons and muay thai lessons) would you consider doing WingChun or JiuJitsu?

Actually - I guess my biggest dilemma recently has been about which of the two arts has the potential within say, 5-7 years of producing a better fighter from me?

I do WingChun and have my faith in it but the fact is that this has thus far been my only MA experience and although I think its very good, I can't be sure whether what I'm learning is effectively something I could learn in another MA such as JJJ anyway ... does that confused drivel make sense?

For example ... the paksau and tansau in WingChun seem to me, to be very effective redirections/parries (whatever its called) - and sometimes the way it is made out to be in reading certain articles is that "these are the best you'll get." I guess what I mean is, does an art like say JJJ also have a comprehensive blocking-against-striking philosophy? (and not just a set of if-he-does-this then i'll-do-that set of techniques?)

Is JJJ a more complete system?

Also ... this one's for personal reasons; if I DO take it up, would it allow me to use speed rather than macho strength? I'm not very strong at all you see so I picked WC and its doing well for me (I think) but I keep wondering whether there will be sufficient strength behind my short-range punches etc.

After all the amazingly bipolar press wingchun receives I really must evaluate just what it can provide for me. And comparing it to JJJ which to my knowledge seems to be universally appreciated in the least, I wonder why this is? Is it because its a better system? Or is it because it has less politics and lays less claims to universal superiority than some WCers?

Sorry, I've just woken up so I don't know how confused all this will sound but if anyone can take the time to read it, that'd be so great!

Thanks a lot everyone,

Aleem.

 

[Marvin]

Morning Aleem!
You are all over the place with this post LOL !!
I will answer what I can to the best of my abilities. And please remember all opinions are my own and should be taken with a pinch of salt a twist of lime and a shot of tequila

Hi,

Marvin, is Vale Tudo a style of its own, or is it a competition for which BJJ has been modified? Or, if it is a style, has BJJ had to modify for it all? Thanks for the info.

I look at it as anything goes, Stand up, clinch and ground. Using all your tools and where BJJ fits is that it’s the best tool I've found for fighting on the ground

Arnisador - as a matter of personal opinion - and for you too Marvin - if you were to combine an art alongside with an MMA school training (which gives Vale Tudo lessons, sub-wrestling lessons and muay thai lessons) would you consider doing WingChun or JiuJitsu?

I wouldn't. The school that teaches "sub-wrestling lessons and muay thai lessons" would already have a curriculum in Stand-up clinch and ground.

Actually - I guess my biggest dilemma recently has been about which of the two arts has the potential within say, 5-7 years of producing a better fighter from me?

To become a better fighter you must train in an environment that is conducive to you becoming a better fighter i.e. a club where you can get resistance and honest feedback for you techniques

I do WingChun and have my faith in it but the fact is that this has thus far been my only MA experience and although I think its very good, I can't be sure whether what I'm learning is effectively something I could learn in another MA such as JJJ anyway ... does that confused drivel make sense?

For example ... the paksau and tansau in WingChun seem to me, to be very effective redirections/parries (whatever its called) - and sometimes the way it is made out to be in reading certain articles is that "these are the best you'll get." I guess what I mean is, does an art like say JJJ also have a comprehensive blocking-against-striking philosophy? (and not just a set of if-he-does-this then i'll-do-that set of techniques?)

The best way for you to find out what works is to do it live.

Is JJJ a more complete system?

complete at what?

Also ... this one's for personal reasons; if I DO take it up, would it allow me to use speed rather than macho strength? I'm not very strong at all you see so I picked WC and its doing well for me (I think) but I keep wondering whether there will be sufficient strength behind my short-range punches etc.

Strength is not inherently "macho" it is simply another attribute to be trained to make one a better fighter/martial artist just like speed, cardio, endurance, timing etc.

After all the amazingly bipolar press wingchun receives I really must evaluate just what it can provide for me. And comparing it to JJJ which to my knowledge seems to be universally appreciated in the least, I wonder why this is? Is it because its a better system? Or is it because it has less politics and lays less claims to universal superiority than some WCers

It’s a lot more healthy not to get involved in politics, politics often has very little to do with training! The bottom line is that there is only one person that can tell you what is right for you. Do what YOU like to do, if someone else doesn't like it...then that is their hang up.
Take care,
Marvin

 

[Aleem]

Thanks for the post marvin; yeah I just read over my post from this morning and it IS all over the place.

My question in relationo to JJJ should have been a little more specific. Basically, I wanted to know whether it has any signature characteristics or not. Just as the MuayThai practitioners focus on and pride themselves on their hard conditioning and powerful kicks, or the WingChun practitioners concentrate on centerline concepts and non-telegraphed strikes, is there anything about JJJ that gives it a uniqueness? Or is it that this is a well-rounded single art that deals with strikes, standup grappling, groundwork etc?

I have been thinking of eventually being able to instruct people in a certain MA or MMAs; however this idea is in its infancy as far as how close I am to it being realised. What I want to ask is, can anyone open an MA school as a business? Or are official certificates required to present to someone to allow you to legally teach Martial Arts? For example, if I get to an instructor grade at my WingChun lineage it will allow me to teach under that organisation. However, what if I don't officially receive such a grade, leave to study a variety of other MAs and only have "10 years of experience?." Legally is there anything stopping me from opening my own business like this?

I love MAs and at the moment there is so much variety of it around that I'm spoilt for choice - hopefully I can settle down and stick to a manageable amount, become full-time and teach it.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Thanks very much,

Aleem.