Need guidance

[kajx]

Hey guys! thanks for all the input about my enquiries regarding doing the bong sau movement in chi sau a while back .

Currently, I've studied Wing Chun (Tsui Sheung Tin lineage) for about a good 17 months now but I'm starting to notice a few things that's preventing me from maximizing my training efforts.

At the place where I train at, we do lots of techniques training over and over again and do alot of emphasis on developing tai-gong, the structure of our stance (the sil lim tau state as they call it). I appreciate the incredible abilities of the instructors and what they can achieve with generating force, but it seems like the place i train at in general are moving away far too much from achieving the purpose of wing chun and even martial arts itself, which is actual combat ( and also not getting the crap beaten out of you, but surviving the conflict and getting away from it safely)

So far, of what i've learnt in my training there has been pretty nice techniques that i can demonstrate, but i can confidently say that I will not be able to successfully perform these techniques in a fight.

I'm not saying that Wing Chun in general is an inefficient system, far from it. It's just that my way of training in Wing Chun is not helping me to progress better as a martial artist.

So here is my current dilenma, any suggestions in what I should do?

I've considered doing more sparring (light contact at first) with some of my friends at least once a week, and still continue training in Wing Chun where I'm currently training at. On top of that take up MMA at a another gym to help me get a better understanding of basic techniques of other common styles and trying to work out how exactly I should apply my understanding of Wing Chun against it.

 

[matsu]

hi mate
your a little ahead of me in your training but i feel almost the opposite. my actual techniques arent as good as i or my sifu wants, but i know from our fighting applications that i could confidently deal with a street issue. and poss a karateka, boxer or thai guy of a similar level to myself or even a tad better...
have you spoken to sifu?
does he show and use real life applications to the techniques you are working on?
will one of the senior students give you a few tips before and after classes?
check out another school local to you? and see if they work it differently.

we are taught traditional wc as it still is a martial art,but we also work heavily real life application and techniques that will work on the street or in real life fight where punches will come in at from all angles and speeds.
not sure if any of that waffle helps at all.!!
matsu

 

[kajx]

Yeah we do a lot of real life applications, yet i feel that it's not so realistic in that whenever i ask my practice partner to do it more predictable, i can manage to hold off yet, that's because my mindset is different when being in training and in sparring because i don't feel that sense of the opponent's pressure.

So in a nutshell, when it comes to drills and technique training I can perform the techniques fairly efficiently, yet when I'm under sparring conditions, it just goes all over the place.


the senior students and instructors basically just told me that i need to work on my reflexes and spar a bit more which I agree.

I think i will go check out the William Chueng school in surry hills (I live in Sydney) and see how they are different.

I guess its because when im partnering up with my fellow students when we do the technique training, the speed and realism of their strike is nothing compare to the real situation. Maybe i should suggest my partners be a bit more realistic.

Thanks for the advice

 

[Tensei85]

My opinion on this is you most importantly have to train realistically, if not than you only have a portion of the formula.

You have to train with "live" energy, I understand in the beginning its constant drilling to gather the proper mechanics, attributes, understanding of concepts, bridging and a lot of other variables.

So based on that we would train based on the following time frames:
Cho Bou- initial drilling time frame
Ding Bou- Partner drilling time frame w/energy
Ying Jong- Reactional time frame w/response to partners "live energy'
Saat Jin- was a San Da time frame w/energy not being fixed.

That was generally how we would train, & full contact San Da was once you could keep your identity under full pressure.

On a side note I also mixed it up with MMA guys to gather the experience & training methods, become more well rounded, etc...

I think what really sums it up is if you want to be a fighter you have train like a fighter.

Sounds vague and open to intrepretation but I've always identified with that statement.

But as for your initial question, I would say tell them to turn it up a few notches.

Personally I really hate people just going through the motions, without even understanding how to actually use what they are performing in class.

Just my .02

 

[geezer]

I've considered doing more sparring (light contact at first) with some of my friends at least once a week, and still continue training in Wing Chun where I'm currently training at. On top of that take up MMA at a another gym to help me get a better understanding of basic techniques of other common styles and trying to work out how exactly I should apply my understanding of Wing Chun against it.

It sounds like you are already working this out in your own head. WC/WT can be very effective in fighting, but not all schools emphasize that. For example, the WT system has some very aggressive and effective fighters. But then again, there are some instructors who have learned the technical side but don't really have a clue... including an old friend of mine who teaches in my area. That's OK. He has his little group of old guys, and they are happy with what they do.

Anyway, if you want more "practical training" than you are getting at your school, you can check out other schools and other styles, or you can get your own training group together to work privately on the practical stuff you want to focus on. However, before doing any of these, I'd recommend talking it over with your Sifu. If there are others at your school who feel the same way, he might want to set up a special training time for more sparring. Or, like the instructor I mentioned above, he might not. Then you are on your own. Good luck.

 

[matsu]

what i also forgot to say is what ive constantly being told..... 18months is no time at all in wc training and we just havent had the experience in class so you have to touch hands more than just class time..... and therein lies my problem. i need an out of class partner to kick the bejesus out of me untill i can stop him or do it back:soapbox:

matsu

 

[mook jong man]

Hey guys! thanks for all the input about my enquiries regarding doing the bong sau movement in chi sau a while back .

Currently, I've studied Wing Chun (Tsui Sheung Tin lineage) for about a good 17 months now but I'm starting to notice a few things that's preventing me from maximizing my training efforts.

At the place where I train at, we do lots of techniques training over and over again and do alot of emphasis on developing tai-gong, the structure of our stance (the sil lim tau state as they call it). I appreciate the incredible abilities of the instructors and what they can achieve with generating force, but it seems like the place i train at in general are moving away far too much from achieving the purpose of wing chun and even martial arts itself, which is actual combat ( and also not getting the crap beaten out of you, but surviving the conflict and getting away from it safely)

So far, of what i've learnt in my training there has been pretty nice techniques that i can demonstrate, but i can confidently say that I will not be able to successfully perform these techniques in a fight.

I'm not saying that Wing Chun in general is an inefficient system, far from it. It's just that my way of training in Wing Chun is not helping me to progress better as a martial artist.

So here is my current dilenma, any suggestions in what I should do?

I've considered doing more sparring (light contact at first) with some of my friends at least once a week, and still continue training in Wing Chun where I'm currently training at. On top of that take up MMA at a another gym to help me get a better understanding of basic techniques of other common styles and trying to work out how exactly I should apply my understanding of Wing Chun against it.

Hello Kajx , would I be correct in saying that you are attending a Sifu Jim Fung school
If that is correct I used to be a 2nd Level instructor there many moons ago .

First off I have to say that Tei Gong is very important and you might as well start learning to do it now as it is very difficult.
The reason they are so into power generation is because that is Sigung's Tsui's forte.

I strongly recommend that you stay at the school because what you are being taught is the real deal , the Wing Chun taught there is very direct and efficient.

What has happened is that a lot of the hard **** instructors that mentored me when I was coming up through the ranks have left years ago to run their own schools after having falling outs due to internal politics.
These were very tough hard men , and thus they taught in a very tough , hard manner .

They set positive examples in the way they sparred , made sure standards were maintained , and generally influenced the way the whole school trained . There was a lot of sparring , with equipment on and without . Some of the classes were quite brutal in those days and injuries were the norm.

But towards the end before I was no longer part of the organisation , I noticed with the absence of some of these pivotal senior instructors that the whole place started to get a bit softer , a bit slacker , and grading standards weren't maintained.

Don't get me wrong it is still a good school its just that they have lost there way a bit in terms of pressure testing techniques.

Some of the softening in the training methods can be put down to the fact that they are scared of getting sued by injured students , they were starting to get a bit paranoid about that just before I left.

But make no mistake what you are being taught is technically correct and there is no need for you to find another Wing Chun school.

What you need however is a better calibre of training partner, remember ultimately the responsibility for your quality of training is up to you.
Identify the guys in your class who like to go hard , the ones who are serious about training and who will attack you with speed and force.

I know it sucks to be paired off with someone who attacks you with all the intensity of a wet lettuce , if after you have explained to them that the way they are attacking is not at a realistic intensity and they still don't get it , then avoid them like the plague.

Also stay away from the talkers , time wasters and people that can't take a moderate level of contact. Remember you are there to learn self defence not flower arranging.

After a while you should develop a small cadre of like minded individuals such as your self who believe in going outside their comfort zone and training hard .
You might start to arrange to get into class a bit earlier to do sparring or some power training or maybe meet up at each others houses.

Stay at the school for your Wing Chun , because it is one of the best in the world and believe me I say this because it is true , not because I love the place , God knows they have pissed me off many times over and you can probably tell I am still quite bitter about it.

But what I will say is that you should go to a place on Castlereagh st in the city and learn some ground fighting. The place is called Spartan Shooto Gym or could be under the name Boxing Works , one of my old friends and training partners is a trainer there.

If you want you can private message me or just write your problem on the forum in regards to training methods , it will help me if I know where abouts you are up to in your training .

I know from your profile you are grade 3 but the curriculum would have probably changed a bit since when I was there.

I'm guessing you have just started double chi sau , doing four or six corner deflection and starting to execute the use of arms and legs simultaneously in attack and defence .

Good luck with your training.

 

[kajx]

thanks alot for all the advice guys .

Yeah, it is true that they are pretty paranoid about getting sued from student injuries, I always get the vibe of that throughout the classes. But i can feel that mostly because nowdays all the students training there don't want to get hurt. That same mentality goes for me. I know I got to snap out of this because what's the point of learning martial arts if you are not going to put in all your efforts into training just because you are afraid of getting a few injuries?


It is true that the gradings are pretty easy to pass... that is why I'm still hesitant to go for another grading soon because I feel like I have not fully grasp the techniques offered in the grade 3 curriculum.

Basically I just got my si hing red sash last week, being at grade 3 since early February. I have being taught chain kicking, the bridging the gap and follow up. So basic techniques I have down. I'm pretty efficient at initiating the attack, and follow up with two or three strikes and two kicks. But that's as far as I am in my training, last week we've just started to learn some take downs which i need to work more on.

that sucks to hear all the great instructors have all gone from the academy, because especially now the sparring classes are canceled (seeing that nobody goes to them anymore).

I used to go to them for a bit back in grade 2 but I felt that my understanding of wing chun isnt sufficient enought to put into practice.

The only sparring- like classes are held at 8 to 9 30 pm on mondays. I just attended this week, and that's where I realise my training at the moment is not enough.

I lack the ability to turn on that constant forward pressure as soon as I come across a boxer. But i eventually do turn it on, but not without copping a few crosses. I've tried to do the dai sau but with limited success. So I just kept my guard up on the instructors centreline and tried to latch and punch through. It worked for a bit, but I always fail to defend against these little annoying feints that he does. I understand that as soon as I see him flinch i should react and strike, but as I strike i would get him in the head but he would also land a cross across my face most of the times. On some occassions, i would be able to parry it with my secondary guard.

I will stay at this academy because I do enjoy the teachings they offer there, especially Instructor Len Hollis who as much as he can try to emphasise the need to apply Wing Chun in realistic situations.

I'm really interested in learning from these instructors that've left the academy so I can get a better understanding of applying Wing Chun realistically. Mook Joon Man, do you by any chance still teach or know of the whereabouts of these instructors?

 

[mook jong man]

Hi mate , it seems to me that it is the straight punches that are catching you out. Which makes sense since they are the most direct and give you the least time to react.

First things first , is your guard up high enough to intercept a fast jab to the face.
The second thing is to realise that sparring although approximating a real fight is still a game with limitations.

You say that you are able to get the instructor in the head , but then he gets you with a right cross . In reality the chances are that he wouldn't be able to that because if you are punching properly your centreline punch should have landed before his strike and disrupted his ability to launch a strike.

But if you are not hitting each other with head gear on then what happens is that some people hit " after the bell as it were ", or a split second after they would have already been struck .

When you get hit with head gear on , your head gets rocked back , and where the head goes the body follows , and any sort of counter attack like a right cross etc is null and void because your forward momentum has been disrupted , or at the very least it will be weakened so as to be ineffective.

If you are sparring with out equipment on and pulling back punches , both people have to be honest and acknowledge that the strike would of had some effect.
See what I mean about limitations.

I would suggest you work more on countering straight punches such as the jab and the straight right.

Just get your partner to throw random straight punches to your head , nothing but straight punches , the best tools for you to defend with are the counter pierce , the parry , and the counter punch . A technique called the mistaken counter is also useful if they still teach it.

Also sometimes it might be prudent to deflect with your Tan Sau on the inside of his arm if his punch is a little bit off centre.

Also you have to be very aggressive and fearless in moving forward , with your continuous punching and latching so that he is completely shut down and can't mount any counter attacks , move in and completely smother him with fast striking and latching.

You need to sharpen your reflexes and to do this I want you to do very high repetitions of patterns using your hand techniques such as Dai sau , Chit sau , Counter pierce , Parry , Tor sau and later on Tan sau vs. high or low back fist

Many repetitions have to be done in a continous flowing manner at a constant speed in a set pattern , then at random times the partner will attack with random timing and with a random arms thus changing the pattern.

The need for so many repetitions is to build hand speed , concentration , hand eye coordination , and reflex.

The thread down below I am talking about basic 4 corner deflection , but you should add all your other defences into the patterns as well , the principle is the same and can also be used for leg defences as well.
A simple pattern might be RIGHT DAI SAU AND PUNCH , RIGHT TAN SAU , LEFT DAI SAU AND PUNCH , LEFT TAN SAU , RIGHT CHIT SAU AND PUNCH , LEFT CHIT SAU AND PUNCH.
then start adding the rest of your defences to the pattern and make sure to do it in all its configurations and combinations such as clockwise / anti clockwise , hi then low , low then hi , right to left , left to right , and diagonal.
This stuff will challenge you to the limits of your hand eye coordination , dexterity , muscle endurance , reflex , and powers of concentration .

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67018

This is also another reflex type drill that will prepare you for sparring.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68775

This one is also good for aiding reflex in stopping straight punches

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67045

This one is just power training on the focus pads , but with a reflex component at the end which will also help with attributes needed for sparring

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66355

In my opinion you also need to do a lot of hand sparring from the guard.
Also vigorous Chi sau sparring with the opponent breaking of at random and throwing a fast combination of punching attacks from all angles.

Also in Chi sau have the opponent break off at random and have him throw up a random guard so that you can practice closing in fast and shutting him down.

I don't teach anymore as I can't be bothered trying to motivate people to train and recently my life has got a whole lot more busy so I barely have time to train myself.

Most of the instructors probably aren't in the game anymore , but there is one definitely still teaching , and that is Inst. Graham Kuerchner who is now the head of Australian Krav Maga. He teaches an eclectic RBSD system with what he calls Street Wing Chun , Krav maga , Doce Pares , and Bjj.

But it probably won't help you much because his school is in Adelaide , but it would definitely be worth going there for a short training holiday.
The other bloke is Inst. Beau Bouzaide he used to run a school called Global Combative Arts in Bankstown , I have lost touch with him over the years but knowing him , it is in his blood and I'm sure he is probably teaching somewhere in Sydney. He teaches Wing Chun , Doce Pares and grappling concepts.

Finally read all the old posts on this forum because there is a lot of knowledge available if you go looking for it.

The people on here from other lineages also have a wealth of knowledge and you just might find a little gem that you can add to your arsenal.

 

[kajx]

Thanks for all the great advice mook jong man . Yeah during our sparring session we had our headgears off and my punch wasn't actually landing on the instructors face because i intentionally stopped right before i landed. So that's the reason why he was able to get the cross in.

I'm going to write these drills down so i can practise it with my friends on a weekly basis . the counter pirecing one is always tricky to me.

It's such a shame that you no longer teach because there is so much you can offer given your vast understanding and the ability the communicate it to others. But i do understand by what you mean on the motivating students part. Ineed it is even hard for me to motivate myself to train harder as I slack off at times and attend only 3 or 4 classes per week.

But that is going to change I hope all is well with you and do wish that your personal matters will work out soon.

 

[mook jong man]

Thanks for all the great advice mook jong man . Yeah during our sparring session we had our headgears off and my punch wasn't actually landing on the instructors face because i intentionally stopped right before i landed. So that's the reason why he was able to get the cross in.

I'm going to write these drills down so i can practise it with my friends on a weekly basis . the counter pirecing one is always tricky to me.

It's such a shame that you no longer teach because there is so much you can offer given your vast understanding and the ability the communicate it to others. But i do understand by what you mean on the motivating students part. Ineed it is even hard for me to motivate myself to train harder as I slack off at times and attend only 3 or 4 classes per week.

But that is going to change I hope all is well with you and do wish that your personal matters will work out soon.

Not a problem mate , don't hesitate to ask if you have any other questions in future.
I will endeavour to answer them to the best of my knowledge and if I can't answer it then there are other experienced people on here that can also help.

 

[Tensei85]

Mook, A few questions how does the grading system work in the above mentioned lineage? What's covered at each level or basic levels? Which ever is easier to answer.

Also in the technique sequences that you mentioned above what is the name of the counter pierce, parry & counter punch that is stated, in Chinese preferably? lol, I'm sorry I know I request a lot.

Unfortunately, thats one of my shortcomings I'm not really in the gig about English terminology of CMA's. So I end up having to translate everything myself.

Just curious, thanks again.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Mook Jong Man, you use the terms dai sau and chit sau. I'm not sure what they are. However, I think they are what we call biu sau (dai) and gan sau (pronounced gahn sau). Do those terms have a meaning to you?

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, A few questions how does the grading system work in the above mentioned lineage? What's covered at each level or basic levels? Which ever is easier to answer.

Also in the technique sequences that you mentioned above what is the name of the counter pierce, parry & counter punch that is stated, in Chinese preferably? lol, I'm sorry I know I request a lot.

Unfortunately, thats one of my shortcomings I'm not really in the gig about English terminology of CMA's. So I end up having to translate everything myself.

Just curious, thanks again.

Sure Tensei , its a big curriculum so I will summarise a bit .
Grades 1 to 4 are the student grades this is where the students learn all the self defence stuff.

Levels 1 TO 6 are for Instructors these concentrate more on the refinement of movements and applications from the forms.

GRADE 1 - These are the noobs , they learn the stance , a few kicks , how to punch/ palm strike , Pak sau , simple arm and throat grab counters.
Students who pass the grading go to grade 2

GRADE 2 - Single sticking hands is introduced , start to learn to defend against punches to head , abdomen , bridging the gap is introduced , they learn to stop straight punches , learn to jam kick to groin , defend against round house kicks.
Light hand sparring from the guard is introduced WC vs WC. Attacks are random but only in a limited context such as only defending against random straight punches or random arm grabs etc


GRADE'S 3 TO 4 - Double sticking hands is introduced , chi sau sparring ,
Defending against random arm attacks or leg attacks , greater use of the legs and arms simultanously to defend and attack , some simple knife defences , club or stick defences. Lap sau and other partner drills are introduced . Grade 4s start to practice sparring against totally random arm or leg attacks or weapon.

LEVEL 1 Instructor
Chum Kiu , knees and elbow strikes , trapping , counters to trapping , chum kiu uppercut , learning applications from Chum Kiu , refinement of techniques and fine tuning.

LEVEL TWO
Bil Jee is taught , Bil jee applications such as elbow strike and sweep , and some more complex kicking counters to common kicking attacks etc.
More fine tuning in an effort to generate even more power.

LEVELS 3 TO 6 my knowledge is sketchy because I only got to level 2 which took about 8 years I think and I spent a further 2 years in level 2 for a grand total of 10 years before I a .... er left.
So levels 3 to 6 are where you learn the knives , the pole , wooden dummy a long with a lot more refinement of applications from the forms.

LEVEL 6
Is reached after about 20 years training and you are considered to be a junior master
Its also the stage where you should be able to generate massive power in attack and be effortless in your defencive techniques because by this time you are able to greater harness what we call thought force . This mysterious force is thought to be able to be directed to stabilise and energise your techniques so that there is less reliance on muscular force.

I can't give you the chinese terms for the techniques , because apart from some most of them had English names.

The counter -pierce technique is using the Tan sau pinky finger side to intercept any incoming straight punch for your head that is coming down the centreline. Intercept with the Tan sau on the pinky finger side to the outside of their arm on the wrist .

This deflects their punch off the centreline as you pierce through to their throat in one action or if you want to be less nasty you can curl your fingers back and change it to a punch.

Immediately following your strike , clear the way for a punch from your other hand by cutting down with the hand that did the Tan sau over their punching arm and hitting over the top. Junior people would do the above sequence with a pivot forward ( for the Tan sau) and a pivot back to add more oomph to both movements .

Advanced people would just step in and intercept with the Tan sau and maybe cut down and elbow strike with the other hand.

Counter punch is another technique used to defend against a straight punch. Its just using your own Wing Chun centreline punch to deflect the incoming punch off course and off the centreline.

Soon as the guy punches you throw your punch which you use to intercept on the outside of his wrist . Unlike the counter- pierce where we are using the same side arm as he is facing me , in the counter punch we are using the opposite arm so it would be my right arm to his right arm if you can understand that.

Because of our superior structure our punch will wedge his off to the side , it works better against some one punching with a conventional horizontal punch because there elbow is facing out , but will still work with a vertical fist punch.

Depending on the energy that is given to you , you may or may not be able to strike through depending on your skill level and the energy that he has given you.

But in any event after you have thrown your punch , bring your arm back into the correct angle , form a Fook Sau , hook your fingers over the top of his arm as you sink your elbow (remember to keep elbow in ).

At the same time as you sink your elbow , pivot and hit him with a horizontal palm strike in the kidneys with your other hand . The three moves at once pull him down and into the palm strike because you are using leverage on his arm that he has extended by trying to punch a hole through your head.

Whilst keeping his punching arm trapped with your Fook sau , the other hand that did the palm strike tracks up the side of his back and over his shoulder where you now cutdown on his arm as you pivot back the other way while simultaneously punching over the top with your other hand that previously trapped the arm with Fook Sau.

Advanced people would do the counter punch / cut down and palm strike with a stamp kick to the side of the knee simultaneously with the last strike or maybe an elbow strike on the end. You can step in with the above technique if you want but most of the time it is not needed because they are coming to you.

The parry is just a Pak sau and punch we use it mostly to take the front hand of a boxing type guard out of play so we can strike through to the head.

The other two techniques I described are superior to Pak sau in dealing with a straight punch because the area of coverage is greater and thus offer a greater margin for error .

But in the scenario where you are moving in to attack his guard and he launches a punch as you are moving in then you may have no choice but to use a Pak Sau to smack his punching arm.

We preferred to use it against something like a charging straight punch where we have a bit of time to react , and he is charging in from bit of a distance with a lot of momentum.

In that case we use a step 45 degrees off to the side simultaneously with the Pak sau and punch as we just nudge his arm over to the side past our head . Its important to not merely step 45 degrees to the side but also to orientate your body as you step so that you are facing his blindside .

 

[mook jong man]

Mook Jong Man, you use the terms dai sau and chit sau. I'm not sure what they are. However, I think they are what we call biu sau (dai) and gan sau (pronounced gahn sau). Do those terms have a meaning to you?

Bil sau is the one where you drive your arm forward with the fingers out , back of the hand facing up , deflecting down your forearm isn't it ?

Gahn sau in our lineage was the split level deflection , where one arm goes high to protect your head and the other goes low to waist level , is that the same as yours?

I don't know of other lineages that do the Dai sau , I heard that when my master came to Australia he came up with it to combat the boxers hook.

It would probably be best described as half way between a Tan sau and a Fook sau but with the fingertips on the centreline instead of the wrist , from your elbow to fingers the arm is kept straight , elbow is driven straight up and arm pivots from the shoulder.

Any circular strike is deflected down your forearm in a shearing action .
Your elbow should mirror the position of your opponents elbow , say for example if he strikes very wide your elbow will come out as you drive up and it will be more like a Bong sau action.

If his elbow is more in then the punch will be straightish but off the centreline , then your arm will just drive straight up.


The Dai sau is used against circular strikes to the head , and the chit sau is used against punches to the gut as in upper cut style punches where the inside of the opponents forearm is facing up .

We use the bottom edge of our hand to deflect on the inside of their forearm in a slight sawing action which is quite painful to the puncher.

This post I wrote a while ago I describe how to do them , its pretty long but it should help you understand a bit more.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67018

 

[zepedawingchun]

Bil sau is the one where you drive your arm forward with the fingers out , back of the hand facing up , deflecting down your forearm isn't it ?

Gahn sau in our lineage was the split level deflection , where one arm goes high to protect your head and the other goes low to waist level , is that the same as yours?

I don't know of other lineages that do the Dai sau , I heard that when my master came to Australia he came up with it to combat the boxers hook.

It would probably be best described as half way between a Tan sau and a Fook sau but with the fingertips on the centreline instead of the wrist , from your elbow to fingers the arm is kept straight , elbow is driven straight up and arm pivots from the shoulder.

Any circular strike is deflected down your forearm in a shearing action .
Your elbow should mirror the position of your opponents elbow , say for example if he strikes very wide your elbow will come out as you drive up and it will be more like a Bong sau action.

If his elbow is more in then the punch will be straightish but off the centreline , then your arm will just drive straight up.


The Dai sau is used against circular strikes to the head , and the chit sau is used against punches to the gut as in upper cut style punches where the inside of the opponents forearm is facing up .

We use the bottom edge of our hand to deflect on the inside of their forearm in a slight sawing action which is quite painful to the puncher.

This post I wrote a while ago I describe how to do them , its pretty long but it should help you understand a bit more.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67018

Mook jong man, your description of Biu sau is the same as ours.

For us, gan sau means downward cutting hand. You description of gan sau we call splitting block which is a combination tan sau and gan sau.

The dai sau, I'm having trouble visualizing the motion you describe. The chit sau sounds like what we call jop sau, meaning cutting hand.

 

[mook jong man]

Mook jong man, your description of Biu sau is the same as ours.

For us, gan sau means downward cutting hand. You description of gan sau we call splitting block which is a combination tan sau and gan sau.

The dai sau, I'm having trouble visualizing the motion you describe. The chit sau sounds like what we call jop sau, meaning cutting hand.

Ok maybe this will help , start off with your arms hanging down by your sides .
Put your arms in their proper angle , then swing them both up from the shoulder until your fingers reach the are the height of your normal guard.
Then place your finger tips together on the centreline .

Now raise both your arms again , remembering to keep the angle in your arms , raise them until your wrists are roughly the height of your own forehead.
Your fingertips still should be touching .

Now if you look in the mirror you should see your head inside the two sides of a perfect triangle formed by straight lines from your elbow to your fingertips.

That is called a Double Dai sau , and obviously just using the one arm is called Dai sau.
That is how we first teach people the mechanics of the Dai sau by getting them to repeatedly raise both their arms like that .

Then later just a single arm.
Then single and double arm from the guard position.
Then against a punch.
Then using a Dai sau with one arm and punching with their other arm to defend against a punch.
Double Dai sau is great for redirecting a double throat grab and the single Dai sau is good for any punch directed at your head that is off the centre line or circular in nature.

Yes the chit sau is pretty much like a knife cutting across their wrist and inner forearm .
Unlike the Dai sau where the finger tips are on the centreline.
With the Chit sau the wrist is on the centreline , and your arm goes in a forward and down direction.

You can also intercept with the Chit sau and then convert it into a strike so that you are deflecting and striking with the one arm in one motion , but mostly it is used with a simultaneous punch from the other hand like the Dai sau and punch.

I hope that helps I can't really explain it any better than that I'm afraid.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Ok maybe this will help , start off with your arms hanging down by your sides .
Put your arms in their proper angle , then swing them both up from the shoulder until your fingers reach the are the height of your normal guard.
Then place your finger tips together on the centreline .

Now raise both your arms again , remembering to keep the angle in your arms , raise them until your wrists are roughly the height of your own forehead.
Your fingertips still should be touching .

Now if you look in the mirror you should see your head inside the two sides of a perfect triangle formed by straight lines from your elbow to your fingertips.

That is called a Double Dai sau , and obviously just using the one arm is called Dai sau.
That is how we first teach people the mechanics of the Dai sau by getting them to repeatedly raise both their arms like that . . . . . .


. . . . .Yes the chit sau is pretty much like a knife cutting across their wrist and inner forearm .
Unlike the Dai sau where the finger tips are on the centreline.
With the Chit sau the wrist is on the centreline , and your arm goes in a forward and down direction.

You can also intercept with the Chit sau and then convert it into a strike so that you are deflecting and striking with the one arm in one motion , but mostly it is used with a simultaneous punch from the other hand like the Dai sau and punch.

I hope that helps I can't really explain it any better than that I'm afraid.

Okay, I understand the dai sau position now. We don't use it, we use a biu sau and punch combo to any round or hooking punch to the head. We just call it biu da.

The chit sau just sounds like what we call jop sau or jop da.

 

[Tensei85]

Awesome! Thanks a lot Mook, it would be great however if we could consolidate the techniques and arrange by there Chinese characters this would simplify everything. Lol, but that's quite a task considering Cantonese translation has a million and 1 names for variations of concepts.

But I guess the important thing is "do I/you know what were doing", everything else is just water under the bridge.