Mukushin-Ryu Kenjutsu-BS or ?

[lhall13]

I aint got the slighest idea to tell on the authenticity of a Kenjutsu school seeing as I have never been in the art itself of any sort. I'm wondering if anyone is able to give me their opinion upon the style/school itself? My searches online about it are extremely vague. Thanks!

LDH

 

[J MacDonald]

what's your definition of authenticity?

The best way is to watch some advanced practitioners and try it out and see if it makes sense to you.
That's my opinion. I'm not hung up on koyru.

 

[lhall13]

J- I'm just hoping to dodge on wastin time on something that aint gonna be of any real trainin. I haven't got many options for sword styles in my area so i'm hoping to avoid a mcdojo if that is what this school is
http://www.rising-sun-dojo.com/mukushin.aspx

 

[Chris Parker]

Unlike Josh, some might say I am hung up on Koryu... and to that end, one of my criteria for an "authentic" Kenjutsu system is one that was born out of experience. As a result, any authentic Kenjutsu system has to be Koryu, or based strongly in Koryu, as there really isn't the opportunity (and, more importantly, the need) to go and create a new system based in experience in using a sword in genuine combat. So that's the light I'm going to look at this in.

There are a large number of things that jump out at me. Firstly, there is no record of any Mukushin Ryu that I, or anyone I've come across, has ever heard of. That's rather unusual for a system that has a history as long as this one claims, especially when it claims connection to well known and established Ryu-ha such as Chujo Ryu.

Next, while the claimed history isn't too "out there", there are articles from organisation, such as this one http://www.mukushin.com/samurai_dayori_13.pdf which are rather odd in places. The claims which basically go against known aspects of Chujo Ryu (it's Kodachijutsu), instead saying that they are actually their techniques, and Chujo Ryu (quite famous for their Kodachi, by the way) never had any is just weird. Then there are claims such as 'In the first place "Tachiai" means to face your enemy with your sword in your hand" in a section on Iai, which is demonstrably wrong. Tachiai means "standing techniques", literally "standing/upright meeting", and has no connection to the term for a sword "tachi" other than being a synonym. The history then given of Hayashizaki Jinsuke was a little off in a number of ways, and the claim that "His Iai is still alive in every style which has the word Iai in their names until now" is flat out wrong, as there are quite a number of systems that use the term but are unrelated, and the contention that it was developed during the Sengoku Jidai (which is irrelevant to Iai's development, as it's not a battlefield art, except in the case of the Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi Ryu), when Kenjutsu was "undeveloped and neglected" could tick off memebers of, say, Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, to name one...

Finally, the demonstrations that I've seen, all the way up to the head of the system, are universally sub-par. The current (only?) head demonstrates some Tameshigiri against bamboo on their webpage, with badly angled and overly muscled cuts, showing a rather large lack in his ability. The techniques themselves are quite odd in a number of ways, with extraneous and unnecessary actions (turning the blade edge up while still in range of the opponents sword at the end of the technique before moving out and performing a form of Chiburi, for instance, or the out of range attacks and counters which serve no purpose and show large gaps in understanding of distance, timing, hyoshi, and more, ending with the simply poor technique (cutting angle, use of hips and tanden, hasuji, and more) shown by everyone involved leave me feeling that there's a lot lacking here.

What all of this means is that, while they aren't anywhere near as obvious as a number of other made-up systems, there's not a lot of supporting evidence for any actual authenticity with this group. Treat with caution if you approach them.

EDIT Out of interest, what happened with the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu group I linked for you last time? That's a guaranteed legit system for you right there!

 

[pgsmith]

The best way is to watch some advanced practitioners and try it out and see if it makes sense to you.

That is not a very good approach in the sword arts, because much of the movement and action is counter-intuitive. A beginner would have NO way of knowing what should make sense and what shouldn't. This is why there are so many invented sword art schools that seem to be doing well, because they are designed to appeal to the general populous rather to transmit actual sword technique. It is easy to find clips on YouTube of "instructors" who's sword work is horrible from an experienced perspective. However, their students wouldn't (from past experience!) hesitate to tell you how wonderful the instructor and school are.

Of course, if the OP is only desiring to learn how to safely wave a sword around in an organized fashion, then by all means your way of approaching it would make sense. However, he was specifically asking about authenticity, and what makes sense to a beginner is NOT the way to determine that.

Just my two cent's on the subject.

 

[lhall13]

Hey Chris- to respond about the link on Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is that the head instructor for that ,Sensei Dave Walters, unfortunantly moved to Atlanta,Georgia due to a better job offer. I have been unable to get into any sort of reliable contact with those that remain of that school in St. Pete hence my renewed search for another sword art

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, pity that. Still, you seem enthusiastic and dedicated, which is great, but the reality might be that it could require a lot of travel, or even relocation. That, sadly, is the basic lay of the land, with many practitioners either having moved to Japan for periods of time, or are one or two steps removed from people who did, so the dominant thought is that if you want it bad enough, you'll move or travel as required... you may simply not have anything in your backyard.

 

[Langenschwert]

To the OP, if you're unwilling to move or travel to study JSA, then you will have to make do with what's close to you. I travel thousands of miles for my JSA training; that's just the way it is. And I do it gladly. But it seems you're intent on training locally due to your personal situation.

In the meantime, you are in Florida, the home of the Meyer Freifechters. You can't swing a dead cat and not hit a Freifechter group there. They really have their stuff together. You WILL learn the principles of swordsmanship there, and it will prepare you for any other sword art you might one day pursue. You will have to change some things and "empty your cup" when you begin JSA, but it's better to study GOOD swordsmanship of any stripe rather than learn questionable kenjutsu.

http://freifechter.com/studygroups.cfm

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[pgsmith]

Also, if you don't want to try swinging dead cats Mike Femal has a Toyama Ryu dojo in St. Petersburg ... http://www.toyamaryu.org/

 

[Langenschwert]

Also, if you don't want to try swinging dead cats Mike Femal has a Toyama Ryu dojo in St. Petersburg ... http://www.toyamaryu.org/

Now you're talking! For the OP, starting with one and then adding the other when you're solid is a recipe for awesome... learning good cutting and body mechanics from Toyama Ryu and experiencing the sparring-heavy instruction of the Freifechter would make a formidable swordsman/dead cat swinger.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[lhall13]

Movin aint out of my ball park it's just finding a school thats gonna be within my assigned troop. I was just hopin to stay somewhat backyard for the time bein until I get assigned. I'll give both above mentioned schools a contact and go from there! Frickin love this community- thanks again guys

 

[itto_seki]

Hey Chris- to respond about the link on Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is that the head instructor for that ,Sensei Dave Walters, unfortunantly moved to Atlanta,Georgia due to a better job offer. I have been unable to get into any sort of reliable contact with those that remain of that school in St. Pete hence my renewed search for another sword art

I met one of Walter Sensei's students during a seminar and still keep in contact, his name is Arthur. Here's a link to their practice time and location http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=493519#post493519 .

 

[Langenschwert]

I met one of Walter Sensei's students during a seminar and still keep in contact, his name is Arthur. Here's a link to their practice time and location http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=493519#post493519 .

I've met Arthur (I'm assuming it's the same guy) as well, probably at the same seminar. A stand-up chap, he won't steer you wrong.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[lhall13]

Sooooo happeh! Gonna try the PM from the E-Budo site- thanks guys!

 

[tomtoming]

Hi
Please can you post links or contact details of Koryu groups in atlanta? I am specifically looking for the Yagyu Ryu or Kaashima shinryu in Atlanta Georgia, USA...
Thanks in advance
Tom

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Tom,

Hmm, how to phrase this... By providing contact details, we would be in essence "speaking" for you. Saying you're a good candidate, so to speak. Now, this being a public forum, and many members not actually "knowing" each other in any real way, there is a tendency to not quite go so far as to offer introductions, but there is also the idea of only giving such information out to those who have demonstrated in some way that they are genuinely interested (such as lhalls' consistency in his search above). As you've just jumped on this forum, presumably only to ask this specific question (as you tried to PM me with that question, have asked it on my profile page, and have also queried here in this thread), but we don't really know anything about you, it might help for you to put a little detail out about yourself, just so we feel more comfortable in giving out information for such.

This isn't saying no, of course, just asking if you can tell us a little more about yourself, and why those particular arts. I'm assuming that by "Yagyu" Ryu you're referring to "Yagyu" Shinkage Ryu, yeah? Rather than, say, Yagyu Shingan Ryu?

 

[pgsmith]

Karl Friday teaches Kashima Shin ryu at UGA. However, I don't know if you can join unless you are a student. His contact information can be found at Koryu.com

I'm aware of a dojo that claims to teach Yagyu Shingan ryu, but I do not think the instructor has authorization from the ryu to do so. I do not know what his skill level might be, nor whether he is actually teaching what he claims.

I thought you said you were training in Sugawara budo last year?