Muay Thai and it's Buddhistic culture

[Jared Traveler]

When most westerners think of Buddhism, they may think of different things like a flower, or meditation. However Thailand is by far the most Buddhist country on the planet, the vast majority of ethnic thai's are Buddhist. Often when they think of Buddhism, or rather a Buddhistic activity, they think of practicing Muay Thai.

Why? Buddhism is based around the idea that life is suffering, and you need to mentally detach from that. What better way to do that than practicing Muay Thai? The gruelling workouts, blocking strikes with your shin, getting kicked in punched. What a great opportunity to show that you are stoic an unaffected by all of this pain.

There are many subtle aspects to this in the practice of Muay Thai, but I'm actually getting ready to pack my bag and go to class right now, so I thought I would just introduce this idea before I take off.

Living in an Asian culture, specifically a Thai culture has been a great opportunity for me to begin (just a little bit) to peak behind the "bamboo curtain" and understand some of these things.

 

[Gyakuto]

There is always the question of ‘ahimsa’ or avoidance of violence and how that squares with Buddhism. Learning the martial arts and following the doctrines of Buddhism appear diametrically in opposition. It was a point I never quite understood and then this excellent book, explained it all.

 

[Jared Traveler]

There is always the question of ‘ahimsa’ or avoidance of violence and how that squares with Buddhism. Learning the martial arts and following the doctrines of Buddhism appear diametrically in opposition. It was a point I never quite understood and then this excellent book, explained it all.
View attachment 29617

I need to read it I suppose. As it pertains to avoiding violence, culturally that seems to be about the issue of savings face here, more than anything else.

If you cause a Thai to seriously lose face, they can become violent very quickly. But the culture designed so you don't cause each other to lose face.

To the point that people almost never honk their horn here. Because it can drastically cause the situation to become violent. Because you are "calling them out" in front of everyone. But also embarrassing yourself, because you are showing everyone that what they did effected you. So you lose face also when you honk your horn.

 

[_Simon_]

When most westerners think of Buddhism, they may think of different things like a flower, or meditation. However Thailand is by far the most Buddhist country on the planet, the vast majority of ethnic thai's are Buddhist. Often when they think of Buddhism, or rather a Buddhistic activity, they think of practicing Muay Thai.

Why? Buddhism is based around the idea that life is suffering, and you need to mentally detach from that. What better way to do that than practicing Muay Thai? The gruelling workouts, blocking strikes with your shin, getting kicked in punched. What a great opportunity to show that you are stoic an unaffected by all of this pain.

There are many subtle aspects to this in the practice of Muay Thai, but I'm actually getting ready to pack my bag and go to class right now, so I thought I would just introduce this idea before I take off.

Living in an Asian culture, specifically a Thai culture has been a great opportunity for me to begin (just a little bit) to peak behind the "bamboo curtain" and understand some of these things.

Yeah it's a fascinating parallel or complimentary thing huh! Any art that immerses you in something intense that involves discomfort, pain or duress can really allow that platform for inquiry and depth of discovery.

 

[_Simon_]

There is always the question of ‘ahimsa’ or avoidance of violence and how that squares with Buddhism. Learning the martial arts and following the doctrines of Buddhism appear diametrically in opposition. It was a point I never quite understood and then this excellent book, explained it all.
View attachment 29617

Ah a friend gave me this book last year, sounds good, looking forward to reading it!

And yeah I think it really depends on the definition of violence; context and intent matter. And I guess these arts aren't teaching us  to go out and inflict violence, but how to if needed. It's a weird conundrum still, as even though we do technically inflict some pain on others during class, it's for an educational purpose (ie not to take them down and out). But not like a "imma teach you a lesson fool!" sorta way... then I wonder how competition factor in here... uuugh!

 

[Gyakuto]

I need to read it I suppose. As it pertains to avoiding violence, culturally that seems to be about the issue of savings face here, more than anything else.

I‘m sure you’ll find it interesting and informative.

If you cause a Thai to seriously lose face, they can become violent very quickly. But the culture designed so you don't cause each other to lose face.

There are places in the West where that happens too!

To the point that people almost never honk their horn here. Because it can drastically cause the situation to become violent. Because you are "calling them out" in front of everyone. But also embarrassing yourself, because you are showing everyone that what they did effected you. So you lose face also when you honk your horn.

That’s really interesting! When I went to Indi,the drivers essentially kept their hand on there car horn!

 

[Jared Traveler]

I‘m sure you’ll find it interesting and informative.

There are places in the West where that happens too!

That’s really interesting! When I went to Indi,the drivers essentially kept their hand on there car horn!

Yep, India is a constant barrage of horns honking. When I was in India I asked why does everybody honk their horns all the time!? They said because nobody bothers to maintain a lane traffic in India. So ANYTIME you're passing someone, you honk your horn as a courtesy to let him know you're coming by then. So they don't drift into your lane and hit you. So apparently in India honking the horn is a safety measure, but maybe also a courtesy.. Very different than Thailand! Of course they don't maintain a single lean in Thailand either, but there is a system to their madness there.

 

[Gyakuto]

Ah a friend gave me this book last year, sounds good, looking forward to reading it!

You’ve had it for a year and not read it?

And yeah I think it really depends on the definition of violence; context and intent matter. And I guess these arts aren't teaching us  to go out and inflict violence, but how to if needed.

This is one of the arguments the author makes. But there are some Buddhists (that term is a very broad temple, of course) who would let an assailant attack them and not even defend themselves! This book is specifically about Zen, however a sect derived from Chan which matured and was popularised by the Shaolin Templ….I think they developed some other art too…

It's a weird conundrum still, as even though we do technically inflict some pain on others during class, it's for an educational purpose (ie not to take them down and out). But not like a "imma teach you a lesson fool!" sorta way... then I wonder how competition factor in here... uuugh!

I wonder if Buddhists make allowances for ‘consent’? I’ve never heard of a Buddhist into S & M

 

[Gyakuto]

Yep, India is a constant barrage of horns honking. When I was in India I asked why does everybody honk their horns all the time!? They said because nobody bothers to maintain a lane traffic in India. So ANYTIME you're passing someone, you honk your horn as a courtesy to let him know you're coming by then. So they don't drift into your lane and hit you. So apparently in India honking the horn is a safety measure, but maybe also a courtesy.. Very different than Thailand! Of course they don't maintain a single lean in Thailand either, but there is a system to their madness there.

Yes, I saw signs on the back of trucks asking passers to honk…cacophony!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I've always been of the opinion there should be 3 different standardized car honks. One to signify "move it" (which would probably be used for general anger), one for "look out" when someone is about to hit you because you're in their blind spot or their just not paying attention, and one for "thank you". We've got the ability to communicate, and a horn honk means almost nothing as it is.

 

[Gyakuto]

I've always been of the opinion there should be 3 different standardized car honks. One to signify "move it" (which would probably be used for general anger), one for "look out" when someone is about to hit you because you're in their blind spot or their just not paying attention, and one for "thank you". We've got the ability to communicate, and a horn honk means almost nothing as it is.

Would you specify how these might sound?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Would you specify how these might sound?

Two options: The "look out" would be a high pitch to get attention, the "move it" would be neither high or low pitch for a car horn, and the "Thank you" would have a very low pitch as those tend to bother people less.
Or you could literally just have recordings of people saying phrases that go out the same way a horn does. Which would be pretty hilarious.

 

[Gyakuto]

Two options: The "look out" would be a high pitch to get attention, the "move it" would be neither high or low pitch for a car horn, and the "Thank you" would have a very low pitch as those tend to bother people less.

Yes. These should be enshrined in law. But I only have one horn pitch so would require a retrofit!

Or you could literally just have recordings of people saying phrases that go out the same way a horn does. Which would be pretty hilarious.

Now that is a great idea! British national treasure, Brian Blessed, would be perfect.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You’ve had it for a year and not read it?

It's only March 7th. "Last year" could be just a couple months.

I've always been of the opinion there should be 3 different standardized car honks. One to signify "move it" (which would probably be used for general anger), one for "look out" when someone is about to hit you because you're in their blind spot or their just not paying attention, and one for "thank you". We've got the ability to communicate, and a horn honk means almost nothing as it is.

This was solved a while back...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yep, India is a constant barrage of horns honking. When I was in India I asked why does everybody honk their horns all the time!? They said because nobody bothers to maintain a lane traffic in India. So ANYTIME you're passing someone, you honk your horn as a courtesy to let him know you're coming by then. So they don't drift into your lane and hit you. So apparently in India honking the horn is a safety measure, but maybe also a courtesy.. Very different than Thailand! Of course they don't maintain a single lean in Thailand either, but there is a system to their madness there.

When I was in India, our driver explained that nobody there gets angry about traffic or horns (which, as you said, are used constantly). As he put it, "How can you be angry at what you're part of?" Those horns were used to warn, alert, and sometimes I think just because they hadn't used them for a couple of minutes and were worried they might rust.

 

[Jared Traveler]

When I took my Thai drivers lesson test, they literally put in the instructional video that a long honk is a curse word in Thailand. Makes sense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Two options: The "look out" would be a high pitch to get attention, the "move it" would be neither high or low pitch for a car horn, and the "Thank you" would have a very low pitch as those tend to bother people less.
Or you could literally just have recordings of people saying phrases that go out the same way a horn does. Which would be pretty hilarious.

I'd think the "move it" and "thank you" could be high and low. The "look out" would be both (which is easier to hear for most folks). So you'd need a couple of new buttons, but the main horn would be the "look out" and would function as it does now (I think many horns have a combined high/low sound already).

 

[Jared Traveler]

I believe that if you know what to look for you can understand a lot about a culture in a short amount of time by understanding the driving rules and customs.

For instance in America driving is designed to be an experience where the world evolves around you as the individual. My turn, my lane, my parking space. Don't disrupt my speed, you took my turn. Yes there is cooperation, you do let them have their turn, but it's so you can enjoy it when it's your turn. So when someone disrupts this experience people personalize it and get angry.

But for the Thais they live in a culture where the individual is not such a big deal. So they are much more ready to share a lane, or let you in front of them. It's no problem.

In Poland, civilians will walk right out in front of speeding cars and they slam on the breaks for you to cross. Because it considers itself a very modern society that values life. But in India if you hit a civilian, most people keep driving and don't stop. Partly because they don't want to have court held on the side of the road by a mob, which might attack you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I believe that if you know what to look for you can understand a lot about a culture in a short amount of time by understanding the driving rules and customs.

For instance in America driving is designed to be an experience where the world evolves around you as the individual. My turn, my lane, my parking space. Don't disrupt my speed, you took my turn. Yes there is cooperation, you do let them have their turn, but it's so you can enjoy it when it's your turn. So when someone disrupts this experience people personalize it and get angry.

But for the Thais they live in a culture where the individual is not such a big deal. So they are much more ready to share a lane, or let you in front of them. It's no problem.

In Poland, civilians will walk right out in front of speeding cars and they slam on the breaks for you to cross. Because it considers itself a very modern society that values life. But in India if you hit a civilian, most people keep driving and don't stop. Partly because they don't want to have court held on the side of the road by a mob, which might attack you.

My experience in India was that if traffic wasn't moving terribly fast, pedestrians would just walk into any space that presented.

 

[Gyakuto]

I believe that if you know what to look for you can understand a lot about a culture in a short amount of time by understanding the driving rules and customs.

This is so true. I evaluate the temperament of people living in different U.K. cities by their driving. In Manchester (my home town), they now drive aggressively and are rude and pushy often not giving way when they should. That’s what Mancs are like! In Sheffield, drivers are polite and ‘give way’. In Devon (where I live now), they easy-going drivers. London? <shudders>

For instance in America driving is designed to be an experience where the world evolves around you as the individual. My turn, my lane, my parking space. Don't disrupt my speed, you took my turn. Yes there is cooperation, you do let them have their turn, but it's so you can enjoy it when it's your turn. So when someone disrupts this experience people personalize it and get angry.

Oh they’d do well in London!

But for the Thais they live in a culture where the individual is not such a big deal. So they are much more ready to share a lane, or let you in front of them. It's no problem.

Nice!

In Poland, civilians will walk right out in front of speeding cars and they slam on the breaks for you to cross. Because it considers itself a very modern society that values life. But in India if you hit a civilian, most people keep driving and don't stop. Partly because they don't want to have court held on the side of the road by a mob, which might attack you.

Yes, life, especially the poor’s, is not valued in India. If you hurt a cow though…