Modern Arnis Basics...

[Cruentus]

Since its been so quiet around here lately, I thought I'd liven things up a bit.

What are your views regarding "Modern Arnis Basics."

I am talking stances, proper striking, style of striking, body mechanics, etc.

This is pretty broad, but I wanted to here everyones take on this. What would you consider "basics" as it pertains to Modern Arnis, and how are these basics done?

Also, how'd you learn your basics? Most Modern Arnis students were taught Modern Arnis in Seminar environment, so it begs the question...how's you learn, who taught you, did you just use your basics from your base style, or did you just pick things up as you went along without formally learning basics?

I am almost finished with an article on the subject, but for the most part, I am going to keep my mouth shut and listen to other opinions on this one.

Your thoughts?

 

[Dan Anderson]

I am rather strict regarding how basics are done. The stances (in the anyos) are strictly performed. The body torque is very much what I had learned in karate (which is giving me fits in balintawak training). The angling, positioning, leveraging, et al, are also strict in application. I go a bit overboard because my instruction under RP was lax on those areas. Perhaps he saw I already had a firm base so he didn't emphasize them. Don't know, can't say. That's my take on the basics of Modern Arnis.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[MJS]

I feel that the basics are a very important aspect of your training. If a new student doesn't have good basics, then the rest of their material is going to fall short. It should all start with a proper stance, keeping the hands up, knowing how to properly strike, footwork, etc. Another thing which I feel is important, is to be relaxed. I've seen alot of new students come in and they are very stiff and moving like a robot.

Of course, having a good Inst. to make sure that you're doing these things is also very important. Its hard at times to catch these things yourself, even if you are standing in front of a mirror.

Just my thoughts.

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
I am rather strict regarding how basics are done. The stances (in the anyos) are strictly performed. The body torque is very much what I had learned in karate (which is giving me fits in balintawak training). The angling, positioning, leveraging, et al, are also strict in application. I go a bit overboard because my instruction under RP was lax on those areas. Perhaps he saw I already had a firm base so he didn't emphasize them. Don't know, can't say. That's my take on the basics of Modern Arnis.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan,

I can see where this (* Balintawak Training Basics *) could be a problem. It was for me, and it was repitition and practice as you know that gets you through.



As to Basics, I learned Modern Arnis frmo an Instructor who only knew Modern Arnis and also from GM R Presas. Others joined in, and helped my instruction through time. We would learn the basic stance work such as Front Walking and Horse/Side stance and L Stance and then transitional. The H form is taught to get peoples hips moving and basic balance. As the student progresses the stances are not the traditional stance more of the transistional stances. Yet, they can recognize the other stances and use them if at a seminar or cross training.

The 45 Deg foot work is a must. No disrepect, to any art, for I feel if you stay with a single art long enough with a knowledgeable instructor you will get the complete system. Yet, when I was a very low colored belt and went to a TKD class, I could nto keep up the cross training to confusing to me at the time. The class was open to anyone fo any style, during one and three steps I would step 45 degrees and this would cause lots of problems. I ended up working with the higher colored ranks and black belts, to limit the confusion I was causing ibetween the two different teaching styles and arts.

I also concentrate on 1 -12 strikingand Basic Blocks.

 

[Rocky]

Hey Paul,

When I teach basics, its your traditional type of stances ( that seem to cross the planes off all arts) but the body mechanics are much more internal, and definately not Karate style, Most FMA is more internal and not external. For those that are trying to make a Balintawak change this is why its a little difficult if you come from a Karate back ground, my student tend to blend right into the Balintawak because of our internal approach.

Call me a samrt *** but that is why at the age of 15 I knew their was something wrong with the Anyo forms. They were developed strickly as a way to mass teach a form, Remy even admitted this to me and Hal Edwards and Paul Doane. So I do not teach the Anyos at all.

My biggest pet peave is single sinwalli, I can't tell you how much it drives me nuts to see very high ranking black belts that don't swing properly, ITS NOT A FREAKING PATTI CAKE GAME!!!! ITS A DRILL TEACHING ANGULAR ATTACKS/DEFENSE AND ZONING!! When I wach people doing single sinwalli moat of the time its like someone running their nails against the black board. And don't even get me started on slappy happy!!

Undrstanding body mechanics is an art in itself! it does us all some good to go back over basics now and then to refresh our selves.


Rocky
Rocky

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rocky
Call me a samrt *** but that is why at the age of 15 I knew their was something wrong with the Anyo forms. [...]So I do not teach the Anyos at all.

Here here! They have some value of course but they just don't "mesh" with the rest of the system.

My biggest pet peave is single sinwalli, I can't tell you how much it drives me nuts to see very high ranking black belts that don't swing properly, ITS NOT A FREAKING PATTI CAKE GAME!!!! ITS A DRILL TEACHING ANGULAR ATTACKS/DEFENSE AND ZONING!! When I wach people doing single sinwalli moat of the time its like someone running their nails against the black board.

What are people doing wrong in this drill?

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by Rocky
Hey Paul,


Call me a samrt *** but that is why at the age of 15 I knew their was something wrong with the Anyo forms. They were developed strickly as a way to mass teach a form, Remy even admitted this to me and Hal Edwards and Paul Doane. So I do not teach the Anyos at all.



Rocky
Rocky

I'm in agreement here with Rocky with the anyos being developed as a way to mass teach a form. The first camp I went to in Dallas TX (95) I was taught the first two empty hand anyos. My training partner was a high ranked Preying mantis instructor and he interpreated the anyos into his method of preying mantis. It was neat looking but it wasn't Modern Anris (I mean you couldn't tell it was the same form unless you knew the form and you could see the shadow or the representation of the anyo but that's about it). Still GM Presas said it was great and that he got it (I took it as the art within your art concept).

For several years I thought this was it do the form however you wanted as long as it was similar in form and concept to what the anyo looked like on the tape. In fact it made for some heated discussions at times as one group would be doing the form one way and another would do it another. In fact my training partner and I were even told one time that changes were put into the anyos to see how many camps the student had been to.

This lack of quality control or the method of teaching gave the impression that it wasn't important. Sort of like we have forms because the karate/kung fu/TKD people have forms. We were shown a few techniques out of the anyos and then left to our own devices to imitate the leader demonstrating the form.

However in time this got straightened out. And I believe an effort was made to standardize the anyos at the Texas camps. In fact Dr. Schea and I talked about this some years back and he told me that back in the early days the anyos were very important to Remy and that they use to spend a lot of time on them.

But the anyos are my weakest area in Modern Arnis.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by arnisador
Here here! They have some value of course but they just don't "mesh" with the rest of the system.



What are people doing wrong in this drill?

Rocky

I am curious too, what do you see people doing wrong with the sinawalis?

One thing that I see as wrong is seeing people practicing sinawali especially Single Stick sinawlai as if if was a abaniko (fan). Don't get me wrong I know you can practice it as a fan type motion, but I first teach it as a chambered strike and then much later use the abaniko motion as a different type of a drill. But I see this all of the time.

Mark

B

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by PAUL
Also, how'd you learn your basics? Most Modern Arnis students were taught Modern Arnis in Seminar environment, so it begs the question...how's you learn, who taught you, did you just use your basics from your base style, or did you just pick things up as you went along without formally learning basics?

Interesting point. Many (not all) of the Modern Arnis folk I meet seem like the basics of footwork are very weak. Either they were taught it, but moved on to the tapi-tapi too soon or since they specialize in close range, the largo footwork has been lost since its not practiced as much, ot they never really learned it.

I was taught footwork and basics before my exposure to Modern Arnis, so I never really gave much effort in doing the Modern Arnis "basics" and Anyos. My opinion was that they seem very "stiff" for Filipino Martial Arts. Something more a Karate or TaeKwonDo person could relate to more than someone who has already had exposure to other FMAs.

I think what Rocky is referring to with the "pattycake" is something like the "windshield wiper" concept when doing tapi-tapi that a Modern Arnis Blackbelt gave out during a seminar. Rather than explain it as a game of largo mano hi-low striking and counter striking 1-8-2-9, he chose to go the route of "pattycake" rather than to give the largo portion it importance. He was so focused in on the close range work that he forgot (maybe on purpose) that he has to close the range, which can be very difficult to do sometimes. As Mr Parsons mentioned, this could be a result of Seminar training.

Thanks

Andy

 

[DoxN4cer]

Real quick... short on time...

Strikes... bladed weapon concept... strike with intention (non-patty cake)... follow through... flow from one to the next.

Footwork... clock zoning system (more options than just the 2 tirangles)... move into safe zone to set up blocks and counter strikes... bodyshifting for evasion and power... fluidity... use and control of distance.

Stances... strictly transitional... reference points for understanding defensive positioning and body alignment for power.

Classical Styles... heart and soul of the art.

Tapi-tapi... ties it all in.

Sinawali... I concur w/ Rocky.


Tim Kashino

 

[Rocky]

Yes the patty cake sinwalli kills me!!! the wrist on sinwalli should always be conected and locked at a 90 deg. angle uppon impact, which force's a practioner to utilize more body torque and mechanics when striking. Remy use to get pissed at me because at seminars I would cut the angle on his students when playing sinawalli or sparring and the re verb from the impact would cause their sticks to bounce off their foreheads, which I found amusing but Remy didn't see the humor in it.


I remember taking a really good Gung Fu master and friend of mine to one of Remy's camp, and wouldn't you know it, just my luck every one was practicing Anyos. He looked at me and said what the hell are they doing, I just tried to laugh it off and say hey its just a thing they do, but in all honesty I was totally embaressed, because this guy was every bit of Remys equal in the art he practicedt, and someone I admired, for his body mechanics and power development. Of course later Remy did what he did best and mesmerized people with his unmatched skill with a stick and my buddy was really impressed, but the whole form thing blew his mind. On the way home he said how and why does a Master with such awesome body mechanics utilize such worthless forms. My ansewer which is the best I can still come up with today is that what Remy was trying to do and suceeded very well at doing was to show people how to look into a form, and see how the movements can really be applied.

You guys learning from GM Buot should now understand what real body mechanics are and it should want you to distance yourself even more from the ( KARATE version) of the anyo form..

When Remy use to to stay at my parents house for any period of time foot work and mechanics were something we would spend hours on. Jay Spiro use to praise me on my footwork all the time when Remy and I would do Espada Y Daga. That footwork was a combination of Balintawak, Crossada and Takajarta (sp) which Remy use to practice all the time. UNfortunately this is the problem with a seminar based art, the fundementals are often over looked. That being said though Remy still was able to pass an encredible amount of knowledge to others.


Rocky

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Rocky
. . .
You guys learning from GM Buot should now understand what real body mechanics are and it should want you to distance yourself even more from the ( KARATE version) of the anyo form..

. . .
UNfortunately this is the problem with a seminar based art, the fundementals are often over looked. That being said though Remy still was able to pass an encredible amount of knowledge to others.

Rocky

That is why Years ago, before anyone from the Flint Club trained with Manong (GM) Ted Buot, I did not like the karate version of the forms. If I could not flow through them and use natural FMA techniques I was not happy with the feel myself.



As to the Seminar taught art: Not many people wish to pay the price to get the basics. Yet I have seen some American Kenpo seminars do this quite well. Yet, most of those involved, were there to see a leader in their organization, and get fine tuned.

:asian:

 

[loki09789]

For my own understanding, are we discussing mechanics or techincal basics:

Mechanics: Torque, body shifting... the fine points of efficient stance/movement

technical: 12 strikes, defenses, anyos...

or both?

Reason being:

I remember from earlier threads that some people use to see the same technical material from seminar to seminar when RP was alive. I remember two Buffalo dates that had mostly the same technical material. I know from stories that Jerome and others had made arrangements for advance training sessions/new material for the sake of promotion because some of the material.
Along this line my questions are these:

What was the laundry list of technical material that he stuck to, and how did he tailor/fit higher level training in a seminar format, what do you remember him emphasising on a mechanical level?

Why are the anyos mechanically so different from the rest of MA?

Also, if he didn't use the same base material from seminar to seminar, what was the rate of change (each seminar was unique or every year he focused on something else...)?

Paul Martin

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by loki09789
For my own understanding, are we discussing mechanics or techincal basics:

Mechanics: Torque, body shifting... the fine points of efficient stance/movement

technical: 12 strikes, defenses, anyos...

or both?

Paul Martin

When I first posted, I was refering to both, but mostly mechanics. I say mostly mechanics because I am interested in the mechanics behind the technical; in other words...HOW do you strike 12 angles, or HOW do you block check counter and what footwork and mechanics are involved, how the mechanics vary according to your tool, etc.

I am sure methods will vary given different backgrounds, and the nature of how Modern Arnis was taught, leading to an interesting thread.

So, I hope that helps. The rest of the questions are good ones, but I'll let someone else address them.

:asian:

 

[Mark Lynn]

QUOTE]Originally posted by loki09789
For my own understanding, are we discussing mechanics or techincal basics:

Mechanics: Torque, body shifting... the fine points of efficient stance/movement

technical: 12 strikes, defenses, anyos...

or both?

Reason being:

I remember from earlier threads that some people use to see the same technical material from seminar to seminar when RP was alive. I remember two Buffalo dates that had mostly the same technical material. I know from stories that Jerome and others had made arrangements for advance training sessions/new material for the sake of promotion because some of the material.
Along this line my questions are these:

1) What was the laundry list of technical material that he stuck to, and how did he tailor/fit higher level training in a seminar format, what do you remember him emphasising on a mechanical level?

2) Why are the anyos mechanically so different from the rest of MA?

3) Also, if he didn't use the same base material from seminar to seminar, what was the rate of change (each seminar was unique or every year he focused on something else...)?

Paul Martin [/QUOTE]

Paul I added numbers to reference your post. And I would like to see some responses to your questions since the subject matter interests me as well.

I attended generally 1-2 Modern Arnis camps with the Professor per year since 1995 here in TX. plus I went to some of the area mini 4 hr. seminars as well. The camps up untill he got sick stared him of course and then the 2001 and 2002 camp in Houston were mainly by IMAF with Dr. Schea and Jeff Delaney (2001) and then the Houston camp with Dr. Schea in 2002 and the rest of the IMAF board. Since I take notes at anything I go to help me remember the material, my input will come from the notes.

1) At the Texas camps there was similar material taught at each one. Ground work for instance, the same techniques were generally always taught. Sometimes there would be a guest instructor who would also show groundwork techniques (Ron Van Browning at the early camps) but it stayed pretty constant.

The empty hand sinawali progression was the same way, every year we saw the same progressions, same locks.

At each camp we had form/anyo practice that was taught by the black belts, while GM would take a break or something.

Very little double stick material was taught really over the 3-4 day camps. Single Sinawali, Double Sinawali, Redondo, and only once or twice Reverse Sinawali was taught and then the empty hand application was shown so I don't think it (Reverse Sinawali) was a main item.

A little knife was taught, generally one to two hours maybe. But it was more empty hand vs. knife, I don't remember any knife to knife techniques. The empty hand vs. knife was more showing how the empty hand techniques (that we applied empty hand to empty hand) applied to knife defense as well.

When GM Remy introduced the Tapi Tapi drills in 96 then many of the techniques that we learned tied in with the Tapi. I can remember a double stick drill that he tied in with the Left to Right Tapi entry. Or his compound locking techniques again got tied in with the Tapi Tapi.

Very little Espada y Daga was taught that I have recorded in my notes. I think 98 we did a little, and in 96 I think we did some disarming but it was translating the single stick disarms we had learned to EyD.

Emptyhand had a lot of Sinawali, locking, and Emptyhand Tapi (Decadena?), Opening and closing the X (crossada type drills?), and Sinawali boxing.

2) Why are the anyos like they are? I haven't a clue. On a side note GM Ernesto's anyos for his system (Kombaton and Mano Mano Arnis his earlier method) have the same feel to them.

3) I think he had a theme maybe. When he was coming out with the Black Belt tape series in 98 and onward there was much more of that material at these seminars than the material on his earlier tape series.

On a side note I think that the IMAF seminars/camps (2001/2002)that I went to gave me some much needed injection of new material (input/insight) into the material that GM Remytaught since they showed much of the same type of material but presented and explained in a different way.

I hope some other will contribute on this thread on these questions since I would like to see what others experienced with the professor at the other camps.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

On my previous post I mentioned that the single sinawali (empty hand) had the same locks etc. each year. What I meant was that as time progressed GM might add a lock to the progression or introduce his trapping and locking techniques out of that progression. But these type of techniques came out I believe when the Black Belt Tape series came out.

It was this way with the majority of his material I think, there was the base material that was covered each year and then a few techniques were added, or say the locking/trapping techniques that would be translated into emptyhand and stick techniques and then tie in with the Tapi drills. And so on.

Mark