Mirrors vs hitting things

[Bruce7]

I have not practice Martial Arts since 1985. I have just stated again.
It is a lot more fun, we started hitting bags from day one.
This was fine for me 12 years of muscle memory allowed me to know my technique was good without a mirror.
The instructor was teaching proper technique, but the students techniques were no where near my standards.
I understand in today's world people want instant gratification or they quit, but I believe mirror work is important.
Maybe one day a week they could work in front of a mirror. That way those with discipline could improve faster, because they don't have to unlearn things not done perfectly.

Don't get me wrong I agree hitting things give you confidence that your punches and kicks have power.
Example: If my side kick breaks a board and my round kick does not, I will have more confidence in my side kick.
While it is not fun and can be painful, standing in front of a mirror, in a horse stand performing a 1000 reverse punches, you will have the correct muscle memory to perform the technique perfectly without thinking about it.


The instructors of the school fully chamber their side kick like a traditional Taekwondo side kick. Last night the instructor could not be there so an 18 year old 4th degree black belt taught class. She told me I was turning my body to much when doing my side kick. I watch her demonstrate her side kick. The back foot did not turn back and the kick was only half chamber. I know how to do that kick, I only use it to block an advance. I guess in a tournaments power does not count, the half chamber side kick is faster to setup. I wonder will younger student lose the most powerful kick in Martial Arts, because they can setup faster with a half chambered side kick for tournament sparing?

 

[CB Jones]

My son uses the side kick a lot....when he throws it from a full chamber it is a hammer and harder to block than from a half chamber.

At times in tournaments he will rush it and it will end up not fully chambered. But when he chambers it fully it can be a beast.

 

[skribs]

At my school we start with a mirror and a lot of use of paper targets. Something that gives you a point of aim, a nice popping sound when you hit it, but for the most part doesn't hurt if you hit it wrong. During this time we work on developing the proper striking surface. Some people get that right away, some people it takes a while.

Once they hit purple belt (usually 4-8 months in) we'll start doing light bag work and pad work. We use thicker, harder pads as they get better.

 

[CB Jones]

but for the most part doesn't hurt if you hit it wrong.

The pain just emphasizes good technique...speeds up the learning process...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have not practice Martial Arts since 1985. I have just stated again.
It is a lot more fun, we started hitting bags from day one.
This was fine for me 12 years of muscle memory allowed me to know my technique was good without a mirror.
The instructor was teaching proper technique, but the students techniques were no where near my standards.
I understand in today's world people want instant gratification or they quit, but I believe mirror work is important.
Maybe one day a week they could work in front of a mirror. That way those with discipline could improve faster, because they don't have to unlearn things not done perfectly.

Don't get me wrong I agree hitting things give you confidence that your punches and kicks have power.
Example: If my side kick breaks a board and my round kick does not, I will have more confidence in my side kick.
While it is not fun and can be painful, standing in front of a mirror, in a horse stand performing a 1000 reverse punches, you will have the correct muscle memory to perform the technique perfectly without thinking about it.


The instructors of the school fully chamber their side kick like a traditional Taekwondo side kick. Last night the instructor could not be there so an 18 year old 4th degree black belt taught class. She told me I was turning my body to much when doing my side kick. I watch her demonstrate her side kick. The back foot did not turn back and the kick was only half chamber. I know how to do that kick, I only use it to block an advance. I guess in a tournaments power does not count, the half chamber side kick is faster to setup. I wonder will younger student lose the most powerful kick in Martial Arts, because they can setup faster with a half chambered side kick for tournament sparing?

Mirrors are helpful, but I'm not convinced they are key for beginners. As an instructor, here's how I view mirror work: it lets the student see things they can't see without changing other things (looking down at your knees changes your structure, for instance). This matters for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it lets them do a better job of copying what they see from others in the dojo. They see an elbow in a certain position, and they can make sure their elbow is in that spot, too. Second, using the mirror with instruction trains them to use the mirror when they practice at home.

The problem is that beginners don't really know what to look for. Watch what parts they copy when they aren't given full details (which they never can be - they also don't know what to listen for). So, a brand new student practicing in the mirror doesn't actually know what to look for in other students (or instructors) to then try to copy in what they see in the mirror. That elbow they noticed? It might actually be wrong, because often they can't tell the difference between good structure and lots of energy, so they copy the guy who looks like he could hit hard (because he's putting a lot of effort into the punch), but that guy is actually not covering his ribs, is stressing his shoulder's rotator cuff, etc. So I like mirror work for folks who have a basic movement and need to tune it. Let's say I have a student who has learned a basic punch, but they aren't covering their ribs properly with the elbow. I put them in front of the mirror and have them repeat the punch, and I point out to them where that elbow should be - both with my own punch and by positioning them in their punch. Then I can leave them with some instructions to pay attention to that elbow and to practice that punch at the mirror for a while.

And then lets add in another factor - one that can go both ways on this question. From a functional standpoint, "perfect" isn't necessary. If someone comes in with an ugly punch that does everything my punch does, I might just leave it alone, maybe teach it later as another way to understand the punch as they grow and can work more variations. So that detailed mirror work might not be functionally important for the punch, at all. But then there's the other side: practicing boring punches over and over in front of a mirror is developing discipline (which develops like a muscle - by exercising it). It can build patience, train for better attention to detail, etc. So I might put someone in front of a mirror, even if they don't need it for functional reasons.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

In my dojo, theres a mirror along the front, but it doesnt go all the way down. I always make sure I'm positioned in an area where I can see myself. At first I thought it was selfish, but if you look around, even during mirror work, you'll realise most students dont actually pay attention to what's happening in the mirror.

 

[skribs]

Mirrors are helpful, but I'm not convinced they are key for beginners. As an instructor, here's how I view mirror work: it lets the student see things they can't see without changing other things (looking down at your knees changes your structure, for instance). This matters for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it lets them do a better job of copying what they see from others in the dojo. They see an elbow in a certain position, and they can make sure their elbow is in that spot, too. Second, using the mirror with instruction trains them to use the mirror when they practice at home.

The problem is that beginners don't really know what to look for. Watch what parts they copy when they aren't given full details (which they never can be - they also don't know what to listen for). So, a brand new student practicing in the mirror doesn't actually know what to look for in other students (or instructors) to then try to copy in what they see in the mirror. That elbow they noticed? It might actually be wrong, because often they can't tell the difference between good structure and lots of energy, so they copy the guy who looks like he could hit hard (because he's putting a lot of effort into the punch), but that guy is actually not covering his ribs, is stressing his shoulder's rotator cuff, etc. So I like mirror work for folks who have a basic movement and need to tune it. Let's say I have a student who has learned a basic punch, but they aren't covering their ribs properly with the elbow. I put them in front of the mirror and have them repeat the punch, and I point out to them where that elbow should be - both with my own punch and by positioning them in their punch. Then I can leave them with some instructions to pay attention to that elbow and to practice that punch at the mirror for a while.

And then lets add in another factor - one that can go both ways on this question. From a functional standpoint, "perfect" isn't necessary. If someone comes in with an ugly punch that does everything my punch does, I might just leave it alone, maybe teach it later as another way to understand the punch as they grow and can work more variations. So that detailed mirror work might not be functionally important for the punch, at all. But then there's the other side: practicing boring punches over and over in front of a mirror is developing discipline (which develops like a muscle - by exercising it). It can build patience, train for better attention to detail, etc. So I might put someone in front of a mirror, even if they don't need it for functional reasons.

To further this point, even if you point something out to students, it can take a long time to get them to do something properly. Especially our students that start in their late 30s and have never done any sort of coordinated physical activity, it can be very hard to do the finer details of a technique if they're struggling with the gross movements.

 

[dvcochran]

I have not practice Martial Arts since 1985. I have just stated again.
It is a lot more fun, we started hitting bags from day one.
This was fine for me 12 years of muscle memory allowed me to know my technique was good without a mirror.
The instructor was teaching proper technique, but the students techniques were no where near my standards.
I understand in today's world people want instant gratification or they quit, but I believe mirror work is important.
Maybe one day a week they could work in front of a mirror. That way those with discipline could improve faster, because they don't have to unlearn things not done perfectly.

Don't get me wrong I agree hitting things give you confidence that your punches and kicks have power.
Example: If my side kick breaks a board and my round kick does not, I will have more confidence in my side kick.
While it is not fun and can be painful, standing in front of a mirror, in a horse stand performing a 1000 reverse punches, you will have the correct muscle memory to perform the technique perfectly without thinking about it.


The instructors of the school fully chamber their side kick like a traditional Taekwondo side kick. Last night the instructor could not be there so an 18 year old 4th degree black belt taught class. She told me I was turning my body to much when doing my side kick. I watch her demonstrate her side kick. The back foot did not turn back and the kick was only half chamber. I know how to do that kick, I only use it to block an advance. I guess in a tournaments power does not count, the half chamber side kick is faster to setup. I wonder will younger student lose the most powerful kick in Martial Arts, because they can setup faster with a half chambered side kick for tournament sparing?

How did you handle the situation? Did you accede to what the BB said or did you argue your case? I can see it as an awkward moment.

 

[CB Jones]

, you'll realise most students dont actually pay attention to what's happening in the mirror.

How do they make sure their hair isnt messed up then?

 

[Headhunter]

I have not practice Martial Arts since 1985. I have just stated again.
It is a lot more fun, we started hitting bags from day one.
This was fine for me 12 years of muscle memory allowed me to know my technique was good without a mirror.
The instructor was teaching proper technique, but the students techniques were no where near my standards.
I understand in today's world people want instant gratification or they quit, but I believe mirror work is important.
Maybe one day a week they could work in front of a mirror. That way those with discipline could improve faster, because they don't have to unlearn things not done perfectly.

Don't get me wrong I agree hitting things give you confidence that your punches and kicks have power.
Example: If my side kick breaks a board and my round kick does not, I will have more confidence in my side kick.
While it is not fun and can be painful, standing in front of a mirror, in a horse stand performing a 1000 reverse punches, you will have the correct muscle memory to perform the technique perfectly without thinking about it.


The instructors of the school fully chamber their side kick like a traditional Taekwondo side kick. Last night the instructor could not be there so an 18 year old 4th degree black belt taught class. She told me I was turning my body to much when doing my side kick. I watch her demonstrate her side kick. The back foot did not turn back and the kick was only half chamber. I know how to do that kick, I only use it to block an advance. I guess in a tournaments power does not count, the half chamber side kick is faster to setup. I wonder will younger student lose the most powerful kick in Martial Arts, because they can setup faster with a half chambered side kick for tournament sparing?

Maybe it could but hey that's how they do it

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How do they make sure their hair isnt messed up then?

From what I've seen from some of the younger guys, they don't.

(Oh, crap. Did I just make a "kids these days" post?)

 

[Bruce7]

Mirrors are helpful, but I'm not convinced they are key for beginners. As an instructor, here's how I view mirror work: it lets the student see things they can't see without changing other things (looking down at your knees changes your structure, for instance). This matters for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it lets them do a better job of copying what they see from others in the dojo. They see an elbow in a certain position, and they can make sure their elbow is in that spot, too. Second, using the mirror with instruction trains them to use the mirror when they practice at home.

The problem is that beginners don't really know what to look for. Watch what parts they copy when they aren't given full details (which they never can be - they also don't know what to listen for). So, a brand new student practicing in the mirror doesn't actually know what to look for in other students (or instructors) to then try to copy in what they see in the mirror. That elbow they noticed? It might actually be wrong, because often they can't tell the difference between good structure and lots of energy, so they copy the guy who looks like he could hit hard (because he's putting a lot of effort into the punch), but that guy is actually not covering his ribs, is stressing his shoulder's rotator cuff, etc. So I like mirror work for folks who have a basic movement and need to tune it. Let's say I have a student who has learned a basic punch, but they aren't covering their ribs properly with the elbow. I put them in front of the mirror and have them repeat the punch, and I point out to them where that elbow should be - both with my own punch and by positioning them in their punch. Then I can leave them with some instructions to pay attention to that elbow and to practice that punch at the mirror for a while.

And then lets add in another factor - one that can go both ways on this question. From a functional standpoint, "perfect" isn't necessary. If someone comes in with an ugly punch that does everything my punch does, I might just leave it alone, maybe teach it later as another way to understand the punch as they grow and can work more variations. So that detailed mirror work might not be functionally important for the punch, at all. But then there's the other side: practicing boring punches over and over in front of a mirror is developing discipline (which develops like a muscle - by exercising it). It can build patience, train for better attention to detail, etc. So I might put someone in front of a mirror, even if they don't need it for functional reasons.

Good post.
My first instructor would explain the reason for every part of the body movement and then watch me and would correct me while I practice in front of the mirror. You are right the practice at home in front of the mirror was very important.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good post.
My first instructor would explain the reason for every part of the body movement and then watch me and would correct me while I practice in front of the mirror. You are right the practice at home in front of the mirror was very important.

And that works well for most folks (okay, it works for most folks - it works well for some folks...nothing's perfect). The only issue usually occurs when we expect a beginner to absorb those details too early. Frankly, many beginners can only deal with one or two details ("keep your elbow down and keep your other hand in guard") during a single practice session. If you start correcting something else, one of those first two details will start to falter.

This is why I prefer to start students on a heavy bag if I have one available. I demonstrate (without much explanation) a basic guard stance and jab. I have them try it. If they are approximating it, I'll let them go for a while. I only correct at first if something is going to actually cause a problem. Once they have done a minute or two, I'll pick what those one or two things are I'll mention to them to work on, which wouldn't include (at that point) going to the mirrors, unless they're incorrectly correcting (usually a problem with how they're visualizing their own limbs).

 

[Bruce7]

How did you handle the situation? Did you accede to what the BB said or did you argue your case? I can see it as an awkward moment.

Good question.
If I was in my 20's , I would stupidly, probably shown her up.
Now that I am in my 60's, I though it best to show respect, by smiling and
then performing the kick the way she wanted.
Arguing with a 18 year is never a good Idea and besides that
It was one of her first times to teach a class.
I was a teacher and and a coach so I felt for her.
Given time I hope she figures it out, because she is the future.

 

[skribs]

Good question.
If I was in my 20's , I would stupidly, probably shown her up.
Now that I am in my 60's, I though it best to show respect, by smiling and
then performing the kick the way she wanted.
Arguing with a 18 year is never a good Idea and besides that
It was one of her first times to teach a class.
I was a teacher and and a coach so I felt for her.
Given time I hope she figures it out, because she is the future.

Might be something to go up to her after class and discuss it. Maybe explain to her that your kick and hers are different because they have different goals in mind, and see if she understands that sometimes you do a kick different for a different situation.

When we're teaching techniques, we have different ways of doing the same technique, depending on the application.

• Beginners learn a simple version of the motion, often an ineffective version designed to teach the gross motor movements
• There's a style we use in the self defense training, which focuses on being grounded and powerful
• There's a style we use in demonstration, which is focused on control and grace
• There's a style we use in sparring, which is focused on quickly tagging for points

If you do the sparring style in demonstration, then the demo will look terrible. If you do the self defense style in sparring, you'll be too slow. If you use the demonstration style in self defense, you'll probably get your leg grabbed and taken down. So all of these variants of the technique, if used in the wrong context, will be done incorrectly.

Which comes back to that discussion. If she was training the speed version of the side kick, then you can say "sorry, I didn't know you were doing it that way" and then you know why she was. And maybe that will clue her in that she should explain the training purpose of the way she is doing the technique.

Alternatively, maybe she'll realize that there's a merit to a different way of doing the kick. Or maybe she'll just reject your version and say hers is the only way to do it. There's a few possibilities here and you obviously can't control her reaction. But it does seem something good to discuss, even if not during class.

 

[drop bear]

It is basically a timing vs technique discussion. Which for me the majority of time should be on timing.

 

[skribs]

It is basically a timing vs technique discussion. Which for me the majority of time should be on timing.

I don't know that hitting bags helps too much with timing. Distancing yes, but timing no.

I think it's more of correcting technique with the "monkey see, monkey do" method, or correcting technique with the "ow, that hurt, how can I make it not hurt" method.

 

[CB Jones]

If you do the self defense style in sparring, you'll be too slow. If you use the demonstration style in self defense, you'll probably get your leg grabbed and taken down.

I disagree. The only difference in the speed is due to the shorter chamber, but with a full chamber the angle of the kick is better and you generate more power. Also, I think you can get more acceleration in your kick from the stronger chamber that makes up for difference in the with the half chamber...and the more power makes it harder to grab.

I had a BB instructor tell me at a tourney a few years back that the problem most have with the full chamber is the strength and flexibility in their hips to use a full chamber. Also, you can't be lazy with it...you have to drive the knee up and fire the kick out. Its something I have to continually remind my son about because it is easier to just "flick it" out there instead of drive it but driving it is much more effective.....at least in my observations.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know that hitting bags helps too much with timing. Distancing yes, but timing no.

I think it's more of correcting technique with the "monkey see, monkey do" method, or correcting technique with the "ow, that hurt, how can I make it not hurt" method.

Maybe he’s thinking of the bag’s movement. Or of the timing on delivery of power to the target.

 

[skribs]

I disagree. The only difference in the speed is due to the shorter chamber, but with a full chamber the angle of the kick is better and you generate more power. Also, I think you can get more acceleration in your kick from the stronger chamber that makes up for difference in the with the half chamber...and the more power makes it harder to grab.

I had a BB instructor tell me at a tourney a few years back that the problem most have with the full chamber is the strength and flexibility in their hips to use a full chamber. Also, you can't be lazy with it...you have to drive the knee up and fire the kick out. Its something I have to continually remind my son about because it is easier to just "flick it" out there instead of drive it but driving it is much more effective.....at least in my observations.

I was making a generalization. Yes, there are times to use the full power kick in sparring. But in most cases, the speed kick is better for point sparring.