Martial Arts Cults

[Tgace]

Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life.
Thus people haunted by the purposelessness of their lives try to find
a new content not only by dedicating themselves to a holy cause
but also by nursing a fanatical grievance. A mass movement offers
them unlimited opportunities for both.
-Eric Hoffer

While reading through MarcMacYoungs' site I came across this interesting series of links about Martial Arts Cults...

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm

In it he does a pretty thorough examination of charasmatic martial arts figures and the techniques and personality traits that they use to build a cultlike following.

Question. What do you think of the possible connections between fanatical loyality to styles, associations, masters, leaders and martial arts figures and the "cult phenomena"? Is the entire foundation of the martial arts culture so based in the "unquestioning military style loyality" and the mystique of the master that this stuff is inexorably intertwined?

 

[searcher]

The difference brtween them IMO is that in a cult-like setting the "master" controls you, in the other you control yourself.


Not to far from my Hometown there is one such martial arts cult. The head of that school is a self-promoted wind-bag that tries to control every aspect fo his students lives. He has taken loyalty to an unhealthy extreme.

 

[CuongNhuka]

i've heard of schools being like a family, in fact most of coung nhu is like that. i've also heard, wittnessed and even being on the receiving end of some guys who that take some futile thing about thier stlye and school a little to seriosly but never a cult. altough i have heard hank hill call yoga a cult. but that was on a t.v. show. mmmmm, very disturbing. very disturbing indead. but i supposed cults have been started just about every were else. very dsturbing.

Sweet Brighit bless your blade,

John

ohhh, before i forget. i think i heard some were that some cults will fall apart if their wanna be god, is proven wrong, or is gone for long enough. some thin to think about [evil grin].

 

[Hot Lunch]

Martial arts can have philosophy and spirituality at the center, so the possibility of actual cults forming around that is definitely there. I don't mean merely brainwashing students into believing in no-touch knockouts. I mean actually convincing students to sign over the deeds & titles of their property to the cult leader, moving onto a compound, female students being required to engage in sexual relations with the cult leader, and all that. I'd be more surprised to find out that this has never happened than to find out that it has.

 

[Buka]

Martial arts can have philosophy and spirituality at the center, so the possibility of actual cults forming around that is definitely there. I don't mean merely brainwashing students into believing in no-touch knockouts. I mean actually convincing students to sign over the deeds & titles of their property to the cult leader, moving onto a compound, female students being required to engage in sexual relations with the cult leader, and all that. I'd be more surprised to find out that this has never happened than to find out that it has.

Yes, it's happened. I sicced the Feds on a couple of them at the request of the spouses of people who were getting big time scammed. They shut them right down and made some arrests. But as far as I can recall, nobody ever got any money back.

 

[J. Pickard]

Not sure of the accuracy of the claim, but in the early days of General Choi, based on info from the book "A Killing Art", the moonies played a part in helping spread TKD across the Americas. So I could see how the cult connection exists there. For those who arent familiar, the moonies were/are a pseudo-christian cult founded by Sun Myung Moon. The formal name is the Unification Church.

The worst part about cults is that once somebody is in one it is almost impossible to convince them to leave.

 

[J. Pickard]

Martial arts can have philosophy and spirituality at the center, so the possibility of actual cults forming around that is definitely there. I don't mean merely brainwashing students into believing in no-touch knockouts. I mean actually convincing students to sign over the deeds & titles of their property to the cult leader, moving onto a compound, female students being required to engage in sexual relations with the cult leader, and all that. I'd be more surprised to find out that this has never happened than to find out that it has.

Didnt something like this happen with the brother of founder of hwa rang do? Maybe im thinking of a different art. I just remember seeing a short documentary on youtube a few years back about a martial arts cult that convinced people to sign over their property and vehicles.

 

[Buka]

Not sure of the accuracy of the claim, but in the early days of General Choi, based on info from the book "A Killing Art", the moonies played a part in helping spread TKD across the Americas. So I could see how the cult connection exists there. For those who arent familiar, the moonies were/are a pseudo-christian cult founded by Sun Myung Moon. The formal name is the Unification Church.

The worst part about cults is that once somebody is in one it is almost impossible to convince them to leave.

I remember them. Oh, do I ever.

Back in the eighties I was opening the dojo mail in my office before classes started. Got a really nice three page letter, very professionally produced. It's main theme, at least the first two pages, was to unify Martial Artists. And it sounded way cool, I was pretty excited.

Then the smell of a rat reached my nostrils. The subject matter turned. I started to get that feeling of WTF? The letter was from Sun Myung Moon. Hoo, boy.

I reached out to some feds I knew. An FBI guy came down the following week. I showed him the letter and told him, "A lot of Martial artist today are very easily influenced, this letter kind of upsets me."

He told me they were already building a case against the guy. Asked if he could make a copy of the letter. I told him to just take it, I didn't want it in the dojo as it went against anything an honest group of people stood for.

I have a notebook somewhere, detailing that whole thing. I'll see if I can find it. It was really nuts. it was really unethical. Associates of that group ran wild in Boston for a while. They even had a dojo. A "separate you from your money and freedom" dojo.

Buddy of mine, a good blackbelt, happened into their dojo one day to check it out. Decided he wasn't interested and left. Two days later two guys showed up at his house to sell him a bill of goods. How did they know where he lived? One of them followed him when he left, got his plate number, ran it through the RMV to see where he lived.

He could have called the Feds on that situation as well. But he opted not to. (What's good for the goose as they say.)
Someone got their plate numbers. Couple of fellows went to their houses. They were waiting for them, inside their home, when they arrived.

Hey, it was the eighties. Ship was different back then. Those fellows even took pictures, they showed them to me.
And, coincidently, their dojo closed a month later.

Ya, I remember those boys real well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not sure of the accuracy of the claim, but in the early days of General Choi, based on info from the book "A Killing Art", the moonies played a part in helping spread TKD across the Americas. So I could see how the cult connection exists there. For those who arent familiar, the moonies were/are a pseudo-christian cult founded by Sun Myung Moon. The formal name is the Unification Church.

The worst part about cults is that once somebody is in one it is almost impossible to convince them to leave.

The Moonies ran afoul of the lobster fisherman, around the same time, in Gloucester Ma. too, but that story is stuff of another thread and has nothing to with martial arts.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Back in the mid 70's the word was that TKD was on the move to dominate the karate scene in the USA - An organized effort with support from various groups, including the government, and there was a great influx of Korean masters opening up schools here starting then. They had an aggressive commercial business plan/model which was competition to the other commercial power of the time, Ed Parker's kenpo. As far as I know, this rivalry did not reach any extreme level as EPKK fractured into several groups by 1980 and no longer had a unified front to challenge the Koreans. I think it's safe to say TKD succeeded in strongly establishing itself. Sun Tsu would have been proud.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As far a martial arts cults. I have my suspicion that the Taoist Tai Chi Society, of Moy Lin Shin, if it isn't one, it is darn close

 

[mograph]

As far a martial arts cults. I have my suspicion that the Taoist Tai Chi Society, of Moy Lin Shin, if it isn't one, it is darn close

For those who don't know, I used to teach there, later at one of its spinoffs.

It's cult-light, or at least it used to be. There's no sexual stuff, but there are/were strange stories about Moy's abilities, such as being able to move his heart so it couldn't be heard by a stethoscope (heh). So many people claim to have been at his deathbed that I think he died in a stadium.

Also, members used to be guilted into donating money for new facilities, which were used by the club for a short time, but then sold to a third party. Profits were not shared with the member donors. Ask Polish and Dutch ex-members about that. They didn't pay their instructors, and sometimes promoted students to instructor after they finished their beginner class.

You could leave at any time, but you were blackballed if you were seen taking classes with any groups that had split off from the TTCS/FLK. Naturally, you could return, if you felt suitably chastened. I think you had to sign something.

The farther that branches were from the Toronto/Orangeville administration, the more the branch was like a local no-pressure tai chi club: in particular, San Fran members were really chill, and Scarborough was fun as long as admin left us alone. But once the admin stuck their nose in, the more cultish it got.

 

[Buka]

Back in the mid 70's the word was that TKD was on the move to dominate the karate scene in the USA - An organized effort with support from various groups, including the government, and there was a great influx of Korean masters opening up schools here starting then. They had an aggressive commercial business plan/model which was competition to the other commercial power of the time, Ed Parker's kenpo. As far as I know, this rivalry did not reach any extreme level as EPKK fractured into several groups by 1980 and no longer had a unified front to challenge the Koreans. I think it's safe to say TKD succeeded in strongly establishing itself. Sun Tsu would have been proud.

I remember the time of that invasion well. We did not get along with any of them at all. That wasn't our call, it was theirs. There were some nasty times, some wars.

I still despise Hee-il Cho and all his people. I hold an active grudge that I'd still go to war with any of them if I ran into one of them, or even a dozen of them. We got along with everyone in Martial Arts. Except for them.

I made friends with a lot of TKD guys. But not Cho and his ________. No, sir. I mean, heck, I'd even be friends with Freddy V before those guys. And I hated Freddy V. Still do.

EDIT - JUST REMEMBERED WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BASH ANYONE. MY APOLOGIES, TAKE DOWN MY POST IF NEED BE. BUT, MAN, I HATE THAT MAN. HE'S AGAINST EVERYTHING WE STAND FOR.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I still despise Hee-il Cho and all his people. I hold an active grudge that I'd still go to war with any of them if I ran into one of them, or even a dozen of them. We got along with everyone in Martial Arts. Except for them.

Last I heard, he was on Oahu, so...
My nose wants to stick into this business and know what happened.

 

[Flying Crane]

I remember the time of that invasion well. We did not get along with any of them at all. That wasn't our call, it was theirs. There were some nasty times, some wars.

I still despise Hee-il Cho and all his people. I hold an active grudge that I'd still go to war with any of them if I ran into one of them, or even a dozen of them. We got along with everyone in Martial Arts. Except for them.

I made friends with a lot of TKD guys. But not Cho and his ________. No, sir. I mean, heck, I'd even be friends with Freddy V before those guys. And I hated Freddy V. Still do.

EDIT - JUST REMEMBERED WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BASH ANYONE. MY APOLOGIES, TAKE DOWN MY POST IF NEED BE. BUT, MAN, I HATE THAT MAN. HE'S AGAINST EVERYTHING WE STAND FOR.

Cracks me up how you go out of your way to apologize for saying how much you hate the guy, then stick the knife in one last time at the end of the apology.

 

[Buka]

Cracks me up how you go out of your way to apologize for saying how much you hate the guy, then stick the knife in one last time at the end of the apology.

Yeah, I'm sometimes a dick. What can I say? I plead guilty.

 

[HighKick]

I remember the time of that invasion well. We did not get along with any of them at all. That wasn't our call, it was theirs. There were some nasty times, some wars.

I still despise Hee-il Cho and all his people. I hold an active grudge that I'd still go to war with any of them if I ran into one of them, or even a dozen of them. We got along with everyone in Martial Arts. Except for them.

I made friends with a lot of TKD guys. But not Cho and his ________. No, sir. I mean, heck, I'd even be friends with Freddy V before those guys. And I hated Freddy V. Still do.

EDIT - JUST REMEMBERED WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BASH ANYONE. MY APOLOGIES, TAKE DOWN MY POST IF NEED BE. BUT, MAN, I HATE THAT MAN. HE'S AGAINST EVERYTHING WE STAND FOR.

GM Cho was just one of many instructors sent out all over the world to promote TKD back in the 70's. It succeeded because it was a model that worked for the individual instructor (they could open their own business and survive) and simultaneously promote the larger model of World Tae Kwon under the Kukkiwon umbrella. It was/is it's own business model. I feel the 'looser' hand of control is why it never fractured like Parker's did.
I my competition days, I worked out directly with GM Cho about a dozen or so times when was still in Chicago. He wrote one of the most used books in the WT/KKW society back in the '80's & 90's. Yes, he was a cocky SOB, but he was very good at what he did and was a fantastic WT sparring coach. It was a surprise when he make a clean break from WT/KKW and started his own thing. Called AIMAA I think.