Manners and ego's

[terryl965]

How do you handle a person with the ego's of elephant and the manner of a drunk. This person wants everybody to bow down and kiss his butt for he is an 8th Dan but lacks the proper manners for people to do it.

When we get together he wants everybody to address him Grand Master at dinner or at the Ball game and not by his name, now I find respect is indeed needed in the proper setting going to dinner with someone is the proper setting in my mind that is just getting together as friends and not peerr to peer like in the Dojang or at a tournament or a TKD setting. What is your opinion on this.
terry

 

[Kacey]

Well, I see a couple of things going on here - first, an VIII Dan is not a grand master, at least not in the ITF, so that is, in my opinion, wrong. I know an VIII Dan - my instructor's instructor - and while he expects a certain amount of respect for his achievement, he certainly has good manners (he works in the legal system, so he kind of has to), and doesn't expect any 'butt-kissing' - in fact, he would rather be disagreed with than kowtowed to, if there is a reason for the disagreement... but in non-TKD social settings, it's never been an issue. I mean, I don't think I could ever call him by his first name to his face, but that's not because he won't let me - it's because I respect him too much to do so, and also because it's become a habit to use 'sir' or his last name. Nor have I ever seen non-TKD people call him Master, even at TKD events, and I don't think he expects that.

 

[IcemanSK]

How do you handle a person with the ego's of elephant and the manner of a drunk. This person wants everybody to bow down and kiss his butt for he is an 8th Dan but lacks the proper manners for people to do it.

When we get together he wants everybody to address him Grand Master at dinner or at the Ball game and not by his name, now I find respect is indeed needed in the proper setting going to dinner with someone is the proper setting in my mind that is just getting together as friends and not peerr to peer like in the Dojang or at a tournament or a TKD setting. What is your opinion on this.
terry

While 8th Dan is Grandmaster rank in the WTF (although not the ITF as Kacey mentioned) it seems there are a few things going on here. Terry, you mentioned "getting together as friends" w/ this person. It doesn't seem as tho this person really is able to do that with other TKD folks that he outranks. This person doesn't see himself as your friend. Perhaps he allows non-TKD folks to call him by his first name, but not TKD folks. I'm not really voicing my opinion on whether or not this "Should be," but stating what "is." Maybe he sees it like some military officers who don't associate w/ enlisted folks? You mentioned that you thought he had poor manners. You strike me as a really well-read, well-mannered gentleman. I'm sure you can find a lot of more interesting folks to spend time w/ that know nothing about TKD. And you & I both know many other TKD folks who are very interesting & well-mannered people. I'd say, find other friends.

 

[terryl965]

While 8th Dan is Grandmaster rank in the WTF (although not the ITF as Kacey mentioned) it seems there are a few things going on here. Terry, you mentioned "getting together as friends" w/ this person. It doesn't seem as tho this person really is able to do that with other TKD folks that he outranks. This person doesn't see himself as your friend. Perhaps he allows non-TKD folks to call him by his first name, but not TKD folks. I'm not really voicing my opinion on whether or not this "Should be," but stating what "is." Maybe he sees it like some military officers who don't associate w/ enlisted folks? You mentioned that you thought he had poor manners. You strike me as a really well-read, well-mannered gentleman. I'm sure you can find a lot of more interesting folks to spend time w/ that know nothing about TKD. And you & I both know many other TKD folks who are very interesting & well-mannered people. I'd say, find other friends.

Iceman you are right, let me clearify when I get together with other instructor he seem to be around in that group. It is not that I invite him he is always there for the most part. The other circle I'm around is alright, but when you get invited to go and discuss what is going on you have no control over who is there or not ther. I just find him so arrogant and thinks that he is everthing outside the relm of mA>
Terry

 

[tkd_jen]

Terry, sounds like a tough situation. Since I am just a red belt I am almost always outranked at any TKD function. Especially within my 'circle of friends.' I have never been around someone who required me to address them as Master so and so outside of TKD, however it is such an ingrained habit to call them Sir or Ma'am, it is just a reflex. In fact my TKD instructor is a 5th Dan and she teaches an aerobic type class for people, anyway for the first few weeks I participated I answered 'Yes Ma'am' after every new move she told us to do. She kept reminding me we weren't in class and I didn't have to answer and please just call me by my first name! SO in that respect I am very lucky to have a great bunch of Black Belts to look up to (right Big Nick) and respect because they earn it, not demand it.

I did witness an incident once where one high ranking BB said a derogatory comment about another high ranking BB. I was kinda in shock because it wasn't said in private and I wasn't the only one who heard it. It eventually got back to my instructor (not through me) and she addressed the adult class that night about respect. She said even as color belts if you hear someone (like a BB) say something disrespectful you should politely address the situation immediately. So she absolutely teaches the theory of respect is to be earned not demanded, but you also have to give respect to get respect. Hope all that makes sense. Good luck Terry!!

 

[Miles]

Terry,

It sounds like his black belt should be worn around his head to keep it from swelling too much.

You can respect the rank but you do not have to respect the man. His "demanding" to be called by his MA title in non-MA settings is egotistical. In fact, he could be a higher dan rank than you and still be your junior.

In the proper setting (i.e. dojang/TKD tournament), he should be referred to by his title-he's earned that. But if you are at a baseball game and you are both adults, I don't see the problem with referring to him by his first name unless you feel compelled to use his title (which I gather you are not).

Miles

 

[Last Fearner]

Master Stoker,

I see two seperate issues here. One is the problem of the individual you spoke of, who appears to have an attitude problem or is egotistical. Only those who witness what you have can determine that, and even then it might be a false impression or a misunderstanding. If his demeanor is of a high self worth in all situations, you might just want to be polite, and avoid direct contact outside of the Dojang.

The second issue is about the use of titles and maintaining a senior to junior relationship in everyday settings. If a higher ranking Black Belt, or Master is of the mindset that teaching continues outside the dojang as well as in, and they believe that it is "proper" to use the titles regardless, then it might not be an attitude or ego problem on this particular issue (other things might reveal an ego, but this might not be one of them).

I know that some people disagree with this concept, but I was trained that it is proper respect to always address your Master Instructor by their title and last name. It is not by "demand" of my teacher, but through an understanding of the reasoning. When I was younger, I would see my instructor (a 4th dan) at a mall or somewhere. I would stop, bow, and greet him just as I would do in the Dojang. Today, he is an 8th Dan and I would never call him anything but Grandmaster, no matter what the setting.

I have been to social events with Korean Grandmasters where 6th and 7th Dan bowed their heads in restaurants, bars, and bowling alleys to an 8th Dan, calling him Kwanjangnim, and the 8th Dan did the same to the 9th Dan. They could be drunk on sake and soju at 2:00 in the morning, yet when the older Grandmaster spoke, all of the other Grandmasters would stop talking and say yes sir! It is their culture. Senior is senior 24 hours a day. I was raised to call my Dad's father "Grandfather," or "Grandpa." I would never have called him by his first name when speaking to him. I don't think it was wrong, or that he was arrogant because he taught that kind of respect.

Personally, I don't agree with the "buddy - buddy" concept between students and Black Belts, or Black Belts and Master intructors. There is an instructor / student relationship that I believe should not be crossed. Be friends with your contemporaries, other Black Belts of the same rank, or non Martial Artists. I had some adult students one time who liked to get drunk, and wanted me to party with them. They wanted to be "buddies" and call me by my first name. I politely declined and said that this was not my purpose with them. I was their teacher, and that should remain so inside the dojang as well as out.

This is my opinion. It is how I was taught, and what I believe in. I respect others who do not, but that way is not for me. As you know, I always refer to you as Master Stoker, because you are a Master Instructor, and I feel you have earned the title. You couldn't get me to stop calling you that if you tried - lol However, I do not expect the other members here to do the same, and I do not feel they are wrong if they don't - this is just my way of doing things.

Respectfully, :asian:
CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[Carol]

How about just addressing him as "sir" ?

 

[matt.m]

I like Carols Idea. I had a BBQ at my house about a month ago and the GM and Pres. of Moo Sul Kwan came. I just called him sir. No one thought anything of it.

Sounds to me like this fella you are speaking of has such a big head his hat will soon pop off.

 

[Flying Crane]

Terry, these are the people I just don't include in my life, either in the martial arts school, or the private life outside the school. Who needs 'em?

 

[Gemini]

I address my instructor formally inside the school and out.

On this board, I address seniors differently than I reference them to others. Example. Both you and Last Ferner are Masters of our art. Though I'm older than both of you, when I address you both directly, I do so formally. Sir or Sabumnim. When I reference you to another individual, I use your s/n's because as stated, my beliefs are not everyones, so I separate the two. Interesting thing is, I never even knew I did it until I posted this. Hmm.

 

[terryl965]

I address my instructor formally inside the school and out.

On this board, I address seniors differently than I reference them to others. Example. Both you and Last Ferner are Masters of our art. Though I'm older than both of you, when I address you both directly, I do so formally. Sir or Sabumnim. When I reference you to another individual, I use your s/n's because as stated, my beliefs are not everyones, so I separate the two. Interesting thing is, I never even knew I did it until I posted this. Hmm.

Gemini you are always the gentleman and a true Martial Artist.
Terry

 

[Fluffy]

There is an old military rule in cases like this; "Respect the rank, not the person wearing it". Give him his due and move on.

 

[Shirt Ripper]

"Manners and ego's." I'm for 'em!