Loose Lips Sink Ships. Or, Loose GPS Blows Up Helicopters

[Bill Mattocks]

Times change, but the need for opsec remains. New tech, new threats.

http://defensetech.org/2012/03/15/insurgents-used-cell-phone-geotags-to-destroy-ah-64s-in-iraq/

Insurgents Used Cell Phone Geotags to Destroy AH-64s in Iraq
When you take a photo with your cellphone, the gps coordinates of the location you took the picture is embedded into the image. When you upload said photo onto the internet for all to see, people can pull the location data from that picture. If you think this is just people being paranoid and that the Taliban would never do this in Afghanistan, think again. Insurgents figured out how to use this to their advantage in Iraq years ago. In 2007, a group of Iraqi insurgents used geotags to destroy several American AH-64 Apache choppers sitting on a flightline in Iraq.

From an Army press release warning of the dangers of geotags:

When a new fleet of helicopters arrived with an aviation unit at a base in Iraq, some Soldiers took pictures on the flightline, he said. From the photos that were uploaded to the Internet, the enemy was able to determine the exact location of the helicopters inside the compound and conduct a mortar attack, destroying four of the AH-64 Apaches.

During Israel’s 2006 war in southern Lebanon with Iranian-backed militia (more like a full on army) Hezbollah, Iranian SIGINT professionals tracked signals coming from personal cell phones of Israeli soldiers to identify “assembly points of Israeli troops that may have telegraphed the points of offensive thrusts into Lebanon.”

 

[Big Don]

Aren't you able to disable geo tagging? Why in the hell would anyone want everyone to know where they are and/or were?
I can't believe people use crap like Foursquare and "check in" screw that, you want to know where I am, you're gonna have to ask me, or, since I don't get out much, guess...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Aren't you able to disable geo tagging? Why in the hell would anyone want everyone to know where they are and/or were?
I can't believe people use crap like Foursquare and "check in" screw that, you want to know where I am, you're gonna have to ask me, or, since I don't get out much, guess...

Ooh, Catch-22, federal law says no, you cannot turn off GPS, even if your phone is turned off!

http://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-strengthens-e911-location-accuracy-wireless-services

You 'turn off' GPS for tagging photos, I imagine. But you can't turn off GPS in your phone even if you want to. It's all for your own good, don't you understand?

 

[granfire]

we talked about his some time ago, just in a more civilian matter.

ABC had a clip on it a while back (think last year)
Worst I thought of at the time was having your kid nabbed or your house cleaned out.


The problem about it is that at least I (along with a lot of other civilian people) had no clue the cell phone would do such a thing, I am sure the average soldier did not consider the possibility either.

However, I think - I may be corrected - that a photo host like photobucket disables the feature, Facebook (damn that place IS evil!) on the other hand does not. maybe the good people in DC ought to put some thumb screws to them?

But seriously, why in the hell would you need that feature on a picture?!

 

[Sukerkin]

On the military security issues, I agree that real care has to be taken not to give away more than can be helped and keeping procedures up to date with the technology is very important.

On the domestic side of the coin, that (unpreventable tracking of the population) is really creepy and very destructive to the principles of freedom of thought and, within limits defined by the criminal law codes, action.

 

[Tez3]

British military aren't allowed to use mobile phones while in Afghanistan, this adds however to the stresses on the family as calls home are limited and have to be made secure phones in base. With soldiers out at FOBs often the families won't hear from them for weeks. 'Eavesdropping' on the insurgents though is done and often leads to where IEDs are being planted.

 

[Big Don]

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[Carol]

we talked about his some time ago, just in a more civilian matter.

ABC had a clip on it a while back (think last year)
Worst I thought of at the time was having your kid nabbed or your house cleaned out.


The problem about it is that at least I (along with a lot of other civilian people) had no clue the cell phone would do such a thing, I am sure the average soldier did not consider the possibility either.

However, I think - I may be corrected - that a photo host like photobucket disables the feature, Facebook (damn that place IS evil!) on the other hand does not. maybe the good people in DC ought to put some thumb screws to them?

But seriously, why in the hell would you need that feature on a picture?!

I dunno about people not knowing. Not paying attention or not having the analytics to equate geotags with giving one's location away, quite possibly.

It takes a lot of effort to find a phone that isn't a smartphone. Smartphone users are told, repeatedly, that their phone has GPS (coarse and fine) and is using it in applications. A zillion of the applications available from the AppStore or Market collect GPS information even though the game isn't GPS based -- presumably to report the geography of their client base to the developers. Even without downloading any apps at all, my raw stock Droid came with GPS navigation (bye bye, Garmin), and an Accuweather widget that would report the weather for what town my phone thought I was in. The "Maps" active wallpaper shows a street map of wherever you are, updated every few minutes or so. When I first went to google to search for something, it asked me if I want to use "location-based preferences" would modify search results based on what is closest to me. For example, if I searched for "Coffee shops", the top portion of the search results would be coffee shops near where the phone thought I was.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ooh, Catch-22, federal law says no, you cannot turn off GPS, even if your phone is turned off!

http://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-strengthens-e911-location-accuracy-wireless-services

You 'turn off' GPS for tagging photos, I imagine. But you can't turn off GPS in your phone even if you want to. It's all for your own good, don't you understand?

You can turn the GPS off for the photos, that is ok and it should be SOP for just about everyone especially the military.

But if you are talking military, if they know the frequency you are on they can triangulate and find you just the same. The Israeli army took out a few terrorists with rockets that way... cells phones and smart phones are a BAD idea in a war zone

 

[Xue Sheng]

Smartphone pictures pose privacy risks

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I dunno about people not knowing. Not paying attention or not having the analytics to equate geotags with giving one's location away, quite possibly.

It takes a lot of effort to find a phone that isn't a smartphone. Smartphone users are told, repeatedly, that their phone has GPS (coarse and fine) and is using it in applications. A zillion of the applications available from the AppStore or Market collect GPS information even though the game isn't GPS based -- presumably to report the geography of their client base to the developers. Even without downloading any apps at all, my raw stock Droid came with GPS navigation (bye bye, Garmin), and an Accuweather widget that would report the weather for what town my phone thought I was in. The "Maps" active wallpaper shows a street map of wherever you are, updated every few minutes or so. When I first went to google to search for something, it asked me if I want to use "location-based preferences" would modify search results based on what is closest to me. For example, if I searched for "Coffee shops", the top portion of the search results would be coffee shops near where the phone thought I was.

Now what we need is an app that lets the military guys put in any grid coordinate they want into their phones; sit back and watch the insurgents toss bombs onto themselves. That would be a riot.

 

[granfire]

I dunno about people not knowing. Not paying attention or not having the analytics to equate geotags with giving one's location away, quite possibly.

It takes a lot of effort to find a phone that isn't a smartphone. Smartphone users are told, repeatedly, that their phone has GPS (coarse and fine) and is using it in applications. A zillion of the applications available from the AppStore or Market collect GPS information even though the game isn't GPS based -- presumably to report the geography of their client base to the developers. Even without downloading any apps at all, my raw stock Droid came with GPS navigation (bye bye, Garmin), and an Accuweather widget that would report the weather for what town my phone thought I was in. The "Maps" active wallpaper shows a street map of wherever you are, updated every few minutes or so. When I first went to google to search for something, it asked me if I want to use "location-based preferences" would modify search results based on what is closest to me. For example, if I searched for "Coffee shops", the top portion of the search results would be coffee shops near where the phone thought I was.

I have a dumbphone...does not even take pictures. I am sure it has the GPS though...bad enough that my computer is tracking my moves....

pros and cons...I suppose the days of anonymity are done for good.

I had no earthy idea that a simple picture could hide this much information.
I have since found out that my regular digital cameras also hide a lot of information int he images....though not the location of the shoot.

Absolutely mind boggling.

 

[granfire]

Now what we need is an app that lets the military guys put in any grid coordinate they want into their phones; sit back and watch the insurgents toss bombs onto themselves. That would be a riot.

I am sure it's in the works...probably on both sides though....

 

[oftheherd1]

we talked about his some time ago, just in a more civilian matter.

ABC had a clip on it a while back (think last year)
Worst I thought of at the time was having your kid nabbed or your house cleaned out.


The problem about it is that at least I (along with a lot of other civilian people) had no clue the cell phone would do such a thing, I am sure the average soldier did not consider the possibility either.

However, I think - I may be corrected - that a photo host like photobucket disables the feature, Facebook (damn that place IS evil!) on the other hand does not. maybe the good people in DC ought to put some thumb screws to them?

But seriously, why in the hell would you need that feature on a picture?!

A couple or three years ago, I posted on another forum the dangers of GPS and cell phones. When I mentioned some of the possibilities, I was ridiculed since most didn't believe it was possible. Cell phones do have some vulnerabilities that can be turned off or countered. To me, more trouble that it is worth. I have as dumb a cell phone as I can get. Facebook and vacation photos can be used to determine you aren't home. Your home address may be available on the i'net. You would be surprised at some of the things that can be done.

Good for a reminder Bill. Thanks.

 

[Big Don]

Tweereal is a map of Twitter users activity in real-time. Animation on the map include only tweets containing geo-tags. There are two types of tweets on a map: with the exact coordinates and the coordinates determined with an accuracy of 1 degree (more transparent).

This is pretty damn neat. It is also really scary.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is pretty damn neat. It is also really scary.

Wow. Cool! Creepy! Thanks!

 

[oftheherd1]

Wow. Cool! Creepy! Thanks!

Interesting how few are in eastern Russian, China, North Korea, and parts of Africa. It is 6:30 am where I am at, and they should have been awake a long time.