Looking for information on the true historical reference point on beginning of Martial Art

[dcsma]

Ok I've heard the historical arguments but looking for a true historical point on a beginning point of the martial arts to where there was a structured curriculum. I've heard about the drawings in Egypt of a reference point talking about the martial arts and about the Greeks as well but were did the true structured curriculum come from first??

 

[Blindside]

What do you mean by a "true structured curriculum?"

If the instruction format is simply the instructor saying "hit me" and then I do this....
"Ok, try to hit me again...."
That seems to be a perfectly valid way of passing on martial knowledge, but would it meet your criteria of "structured curriculum?"

 

[dcsma]

To me any ways would be interesting to know which style emerged first with a belt system not specifically like white, orange, black to say the lease cause I know that it use to be you get a white belt had it till the instructor said your basically a black belt but. But historically like I said there where reference points with Egypt and Greece.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So what you're looking for is info on the origins of the belt ranking system?
The earliest use of dan ranks that I know was 1883, when Kano Sensei adopted it from the game of GO and issued black belts to two of his judo students.
I don't think colored belts were used until early in the 20th century.

 

[pgsmith]

If you are interested in the history of martial arts, I would suggest checking out KRONOS over at EJMAS ... KRONOS

Interesting facts, and a very large bibliography for further research.

 

[Instructor]

Kronos is impressive, thanks for bringing to my attention.

 

[chinto]

hit ug!! ug block hit back so you hurt!!! ohh circa about 69,000 BC perhaps?

 

[Cayuga Karate]

We can comfortably view martial arts in the 21st century as neatly divided into empty hand (civilian) and armed (Military). And we can debate the semantics of the term martial.

Martial, in English, refers to warlike, or combat. The term budo (Japanese) and Wu Dao, (Chinese) also refer to the military. The character for bu/wu loosely translates into "stop a spear."

Prior to the advent of firearms some 600 or so years ago, men fought with bladed weapons, or if we go back far enough in history, they fought with polearms with flaked stone points.

For all of this duration, thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of years, these arts, were in part, military.

These military arts would have preceded any written record by many thousands of years. Moreover, even once man developed writing, we should all expect that various communities took efforts to protect their military arts. They would not have written much about them in any meaningful context. They would have been secret.

I mention this because I believe any effort to learn what ancient cultures did regarding actual military combat techniques is likely to be a real challenge.

Another aspect of this one shouldn't ignore is that much in the way of fighting technique is extremely difficult to capture in text. I doubt many would have taken the effort, even if they weren't restricted in doing so due to the secrecy that has always surrounded military fighting concepts.

One final point. Man has fought man for as long as we have been on the planet. These fighting systems have had literally tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years to evolve. Groups of men from all points of the globe would have developed fighting systems. I find the concept that any could be called the "first" could never be supported. The best one could hope for is the first "mention" of some system of martial arts in the written record. One should not assume that the "first mention" of a martial art would in any way translate into the "first" martial art.

-Cayuga Karate

 

[chinto]

yep, the first record I know of is in a tomb in Egypt.... about 5000 years old or so.... but you know it is a lot older then that! I would bet that the "Ice Man" found in the Italian/Austrian alps had training in something of a martial art... he had a knife, Copper Axe, and Bow...

I would bet that he had unarmed training of some basic sort too, or at least training not only in the bow, but how to use the knife and axe as weapons.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

The indigenous fighting systems originated in Africa in Kush (Ethiopia), Punt, (Sudan), and Kemet (Egypt). Over time when African were moving out of the continent to settle in different countries, all the civilizations developed the Martial Arts.

Here are some articles by Kilindi Iyi
http://www.tamerrian.com/Articles.html

Here is a video by Ashra Kwesi on Martial Arts, he does field research on Egypt
http://jonathan-bynoe.blogspot.com/2012/02/ashra-kwesi-explains-african-origin-of.html

Here is an article on Nubian Wrestling by Prof. Carrol
http://wysinger.homestead.com/nubiansport.html

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, that's quite a leap of logic there... The indication that there were ancient martial methods in Africa really doesn't in any way indicate that martial arts started there, nor does it indicate that what was found in Africa millenia ago has any real direct connection to anything found these days. Really, the best you can say is that there is some evidence to suggest that there was a form of systemetised combative training found in Africa thousands of years ago, and that's it.

Besides, didn't we say all that to you already? Here we go: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...rts-and-Nubian-Wrestling-(Article)&highlight=

 

[frank raud]

The indigenous fighting systems originated in Africa in Kush (Ethiopia), Punt, (Sudan), and Kemet (Egypt). Over time when African were moving out of the continent to settle in different countries, all the civilizations developed the Martial Arts.

Here are some articles by Kilindi Iyi
http://www.tamerrian.com/Articles.html

Here is a video by Ashra Kwesi on Martial Arts, he does field research on Egypt
http://jonathan-bynoe.blogspot.com/2012/02/ashra-kwesi-explains-african-origin-of.html

Here is an article on Nubian Wrestling by Prof. Carrol
http://wysinger.homestead.com/nubiansport.html

Because it makes perfect sense that the rest of the world couldn't figure out how to hit each other until the diaspora arrived.

 

[puunui]

Ok I've heard the historical arguments but looking for a true historical point on a beginning point of the martial arts to where there was a structured curriculum. I've heard about the drawings in Egypt of a reference point talking about the martial arts and about the Greeks as well but were did the true structured curriculum come from first??

I would think that there isn't a single beginning point for the martial arts, that all people had some sort of self protection or offensive war arts or techniques which they developed on their own from the earliest beginnings.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

I tend to favor the Lost Continent of Atlantis theory myself.
For belt ranks, see Dirty Dog's post above. (the Atlanteans used imbedded crystals, not belts)

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

Hmm, that's quite a leap of logic there... The indication that there were ancient martial methods in Africa really doesn't in any way indicate that martial arts started there, nor does it indicate that what was found in Africa millenia ago has any real direct connection to anything found these days. Really, the best you can say is that there is some evidence to suggest that there was a form of systemetised combative training found in Africa thousands of years ago, and that's it.

Well, people are entitled to their own opinion. However, I find it more sense that where the indigenous combative systems originated had to be where humankind began. Africa happened to be an established civilization predated all others civilizations. Overtime, when the natives were branching out of the continent, the combatives systems devloped in other civilizations. Then centuries later every civilizations further developed unarmed techniques and weaponry combat via trade routes and imperial expansionism. It makes more sense to me than just a bogus story about an Indian monk traveling to China and inventing Martial Arts to the monks during the dark ages.

 

[pgsmith]

Africa happened to be an established civilization predated all others civilizations.

What civilization was that? It was my understanding that the Middle East was the site of the earliest civilizations.

 

[frank raud]

Well, people are entitled to their own opinion. However, I find it more sense that where the indigenous combative systems originated had to be where humankind began. Africa happened to be an established civilization predated all others civilizations. Overtime, when the natives were branching out of the continent, the combatives systems devloped in other civilizations. Then centuries later every civilizations further developed unarmed techniques and weaponry combat via trade routes and imperial expansionism. It makes more sense to me than just a bogus story about an Indian monk traveling to China and inventing Martial Arts to the monks during the dark ages.

Let's work with this logic train. Civilization began in Africa,ergo martial arts began in Africa. Seems reasonable to assume ancient Africans learned how to hunt and use fire. Did the ancient Chinese, Japanese and Europeans need to wait until they had trade with Africa to learn how to hunt or use fire? Could they have learned it on their own as a necessity to survival? It would seem logical that if they couldnt hunt, their civilization(pre-agricultural) would not last long enough to have trade with Africa. In a similar, lawless environment, wouldn't some form of martial arts(or at least fighting)been a requirement for survival? The theory that Africans were the first to develop martial arts does not mean that all martial arts stem from Africa. I'm glad you recognize that the story of Bodhiharma bringing martial arts to the Chinese is a fable. What will it take for you to recognise you have replaced one fable with another?

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

What civilization was that? It was my understanding that the Middle East was the site of the earliest civilizations.

There is no such thing as the Middle East. The middle east is western Asia or part of the Asian continent. Civilization had started in Eastern Africa in Ethiopia and the Nile Valley.

 

[puunui]

There is no such thing as the Middle East. The middle east is western Asia or part of the Asian continent. Civilization had started in Eastern Africa in Ethiopia and the Nile Valley.

I thought civilization started in mesopotamia, in the middle east.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, people are entitled to their own opinion. However, I find it more sense that where the indigenous combative systems originated had to be where humankind began. Africa happened to be an established civilization predated all others civilizations. Overtime, when the natives were branching out of the continent, the combatives systems devloped in other civilizations. Then centuries later every civilizations further developed unarmed techniques and weaponry combat via trade routes and imperial expansionism. It makes more sense to me than just a bogus story about an Indian monk traveling to China and inventing Martial Arts to the monks during the dark ages.

You didn't present your post as opinion, you presented it as fact. And it is barely able to qualify as opinion, it is largely unsupported belief relying on leaps of logic, assumptions without logic, and a lack of understanding of parallel development, as well as less-than-accepted ideas of what was the origin of all civilization.

In short, there is no support whatsoever for any ancient African martial arts being direct, or even indirect ancestors for, say, Japanese martial arts of any era.

The story of Boddhidharma is given as a mythological origin story for Chinese martial systems, attributing the crucible as the Shaolin Temple, not all martial arts. So you're really saying you're replacing an established and understood myth, or legend (which you seem to think people think is taken as historical fact) that you have not understood in the first place with a largely unsupportable concept designed to place one cultural source over others as part of a reaction to the treatment of that cultural touchstone over the past centuries, rather than on any real application of knowledge. I really don't know that that's better.

There is no such thing as the Middle East. The middle east is western Asia or part of the Asian continent. Civilization had started in Eastern Africa in Ethiopia and the Nile Valley.

No such thing as the Middle East?!?! Might I suggest you spend some time with an atlas, or a globe... or a newspaper?