Link between Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu and Kukishinden-ryu Happo Hikenjutsu??

[heretic888]

I have heard it speculated from time to time that there is some sort of historical connection between these two ryuha. They both employ their respective 18 areas of training (which seem to vary with the times) and I have heard it said that the Kukishinden-ryu contains Ninjutsu within its teachings at some point.

Any speculation upon this??

 

[Pervaz]

In terms of katas I havent seen any congeence of the two schools .. (pure speculation) there may be some similarities becuase Takematsu was close to the Kuki family and wrote some of the densho after the fire that destroy many of the original scrolls...(pure speculation)


P

 

[Greg Chapman]

Togakure was a traditional ninja school, the Kuki is a naval samurai school, dont know where the link would be.

 

[Jay Bell]

the Kuki is a naval samurai school, dont know where the link would be

I've heard this time and again...even from some rank busters, but unfortunately no...it's really not. Kuki Yoshitaka was an admiral in the Kumano Suigun Navy at one time, but to say the school itself is a naval school is incorrect.

As far as the physical Taijutsu, I see no similarities.

 

[Greg Chapman]

Kukishinden Naval school

Their own website at shinjin.co.jp, detailing their history on the water!

 

[Jay Bell]

And if you actually took the time to read the information from their website, you might understand the context that it is told.

 

[heretic888]

Togakure was a traditional ninja school, the Kuki is a naval samurai school, dont know where the link would be.

Hmmm... perhaps, but Kukishinden Happo Hikenjutsu contains Shinobijutsu (of course, so do many "non-ninja" ryuha) and strong elements of Ninpo, I believe.

The dichotomy between "ninja" and "samurai" isn't always black and white (in fact, I'd say the dichotomy itself is pretty erroneous anyways).

As far as the physical Taijutsu, I see no similarities.

Yes, but a divergence in techniques and principles does not necessarily mean they don't have a shared history or "culture".

Just my thoughts, of course.

 

[Jay Bell]

Very true....that's why I worded it "physical Taijutsu". I'm not even going there

 

[Greg Chapman]

Kuki is a naval school, my teacher wrote the book on it and if there is one thing he is hot on its the history, if you dont believe it then buy his book on ninjutsu.com called History of the schools of bujinkan $29.95 wriiten with Van Donk!

 

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Greg Chapman
Kuki is a naval school, my teacher wrote the book on it and if there is one thing he is hot on its the history, if you dont believe it then buy his book on ninjutsu.com called History of the schools of bujinkan $29.95 wriiten with Van Donk!

I've heard from several people who are also "hot on history" that this book has many errors. I've spoken on the topic of the schools (Togakure, Gyokko, Koto) with Sean Askew, who spent 10 years in Japan, majored in history at a Japanese university, and verified his information with Hatsumi sensei before writing a theme on the Momochi-den, as he calls them. So you were saying?

Jeff

 

[Greg Chapman]

Simply prove your info and i will shut up then!

 

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Greg Chapman
Simply prove your info and i will shut up then!

You may want to contact Sean Askew through this site. In addition to the paper I mentioned, he also spent time while in Japan researching the other existing branches of Kukishin. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to share his information with you.

Jeff

 

[Greg Chapman]

Kreth,

i think we should stop the arguement, its going no where, i have sat here this morning reading the shinjin and i still think its a naval school, as most of the heritage of the family stems that way but then you think differently, i couldnt find anything on Sean's web site though, who knows who's right, we were not there so who knows? Sean's website is good though!

 

[Jay Bell]

i think we should stop the arguement, its going no where

Only because you won't listen to anything out side of your spectrum of understanding

 

[Greg Chapman]

no, again its a difference of opinions, i believe one thing and kreth believes another, this is like you spelling color we spell colour, and if along my travels i am proved wrong then i will go back and apologise but until then... and don't you think as a moderator, you should not be running down people's opinions?

 

[heretic888]

no, again its a difference of opinions

This makes the erroneous assumption that all opinions are of equal merit or equally true.

It's like I say.... opinions are like a$$holes; everyone's got them, but some are a bit cleaner than others.

i believe one thing and kreth believes another, this is like you spelling color we spell colour

No. That is a regional linguistic difference, not a difference in historical fact. A more appropriate analogy would be so-and-so says that Christopher Columbus went to India, while so-and-so says he went to North America. One is clearly "right" (so to speak), while the other is not.

and don't you think as a moderator, you should not be running down people's opinions?

You obviously haven't been here very long.

 

[Jay Bell]

don't you think as a moderator, you should not be running down people's opinions?

I don't agree with that at all. You're argueing documentation vs. what your teacher told you...it's not a question of people's opinions. It's history. If you're wrong, you'll get called on it.

 

[Jay Bell]

As far as sources...

“The Kukishinden Ryû (Nine Demons Divine Transmission School) was founded during the Kamakura period (12th Century). The founder was apparently visited in his sleep by nine demons, during nine consecutive nights. It is said that the demons instructed him in the secret techniques that became the foundation of the ryû. In later years the Kuki family were tasked with protecting the coastal waters of their home region in Kumano and extracted a “toll” from passing ships to support that patriotic duty.”
Quote from Peter King

more...

The founder was a guard of the Tenno Go-Daigo (Emperor) called Yasushimaru Kurabito Takamasa.
Because of his excellent contribution as a guard Yashushimaru was later awarded the Kuki family name. In addition to eight techniques such as bôjutsu, yari, naginata, shuriken, taijutsu this ryû also uses kenpo (sword). It excels especially in its use of the sword. At the time, as it was an era of civil wars, sword was
mainly used to kill, but as time changes and it became more peaceful, sword switched its function to protect good, and punish the bad. Because the Kuki Suigun (navy) used swords on ships, the lowered Posture that gave better balance became the basic way of sword of this ryû.

From a translation of the book 'Hiden Ninja Submission' by Hatsumi Masaaki.

Denoting that the ryu was around before the Kuki Suigun. The adaptation of the kamae in the Kenjutsu came later.

And...

The Second Battle of Kizugawaguchi, 1578
“Japanese warships of the Sengoku Period were clumsy and primitive compared to contemporary
European vessels. In this picture (pic in book) we see one of Oda Nobunaga’s specially commisioned, extra-large ôadake-bune ships, built for him by his admiral Kuki Yoshitaka. It is taking on a standard-sized ôadakebune of the Môri Navy, which kept open the supply lines for Nobunaga’s hated enemies, the Buddhist
fanatics of the Ikkô-ikki. The ships resemble two floating yagura, or wooden castles. The whole surface, called the tate ita, was covered with planking 6-10 centimeters thick. Along the four sides loopholes were cut for guns and bows, leaving no dead space that was not covered by defensive fire. As well as the
advantage given by their extra size, the Oda ships were also reinforced in some way with iron. It is unlikely that they were covered with iron sheets, which would have made them ‘ironclad battleships’, though a certain priest saw the ships as they put to sea, and describes these magnificent vessels as ‘ironships’.
A European visitor was very impressed by their firepower. Kuki Yoshitaka had a chance to test them when he encountered a pirate fleet as he rounded the coast of the Kii peninsula. The pirates opened fire, but were soon dispersed. He then sailed the six iron ships into Osaka bay, escorted by smaller vessels.

From Samurai Warfare by Dr. Stephen Turnbull

And from the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho website:

The Admiral of the Kumano Suigun Navy: Kuki Yoshitaka
Kuki Osuminokami Yoshitaka(1542-1600), head of Toba castle, is well- known as Admiral of the Kumano Suigun Navy, who commanded a battleship called The Nippon Maru and regarded as founder of the Japanese Navy.

Yasutaka was born to Kuki Sadataka, head of Tashiro castle, at Shima in 1542 and his name in childhood was Umanosuke. He was brave by nature and was good at spear techniques. Commanding the Kumano Suigun Navy, he served under Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi. He played a decisive role and distinguished himself in battles.

The last two I included to explain the founding of the Kumano Suigun Navy....which during the life of Kuki Yoshitaka (1542-1600)...however the ryu was founded around 1335. This is almost two hundred years before the Kuki family had anything to do with a Navy, ships or boats. Before this, it was a battlefield school.

 

[Greg Chapman]

well then, why didn't you just do this before instead of giving me a riding!!

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

neato


so, no link to togakure then?