Line 'em up!

[Josh Oakley]

I'm curious to see how people rank these in order of importance:

SPEED
TECHNIQUE
DISTANCE
TIMING

I have my own answers, but I want to see other people's thoughts. Line these up in order of importance and give the reasons why you listed them in the order you did. I did not list these in order of their importance in my oppinion. I will on Monday.

 

[Yew]

Power's not included? For me it would be distance first. If his arms are longer and he is taller, don't wait till his friend separates you(of course he's trying make you at a disadvantage) or till he pushes and makes you fall 4 steps .Go on the offensive first while you are still in close range if he is holding your CD,bag,money etc after forcing you to "borrow" your belongings to him.

It's because I'm not good in speed to rush past his longer arms through openings that's why I prioritize distance.If not I would prioritize speed.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I'm curious to see how people rank these in order of importance:

SPEED
TECHNIQUE
DISTANCE
TIMING

I have my own answers, but I want to see other people's thoughts. Line these up in order of importance and give the reasons why you listed them in the order you did. I did not list these in order of their importance in my oppinion. I will on Monday.

1)Technique ( what good is being close enough and fast enough to get there if you haven't a clue what to do once you arrive)
2)Timing (If you do things in the wrong order to make them work, what good was fast)
3)Speed ( Now that we have those two in order speed must come next because now that you know what to do and in what order, NOW is the place for speed)
4)Distance ( being mostly a grappler this is less of an issue to me as to someone who likes striking/kicking since most street people who start assaults do so within my preferred range anyway( not including firearms issues sticking with unarmed)

 

[bluekey88]

That's how I see it.

Good technique allows for better speed (and power). Good timing is necessary for the good technique to hit it's target (accuracy).

When I'm teaching kicking fundamentals I alwayds stress that students should have good Blaance, then technique, accuracy(focus) speed....with power being last and generally a result of the proper utilization of the previous elements.

Peace,
Erik

 

[MJS]

Technique: This is the bread and butter, the foundation so to speak. Without good technique, it won't matter what you're doing because it won't be any good.

Timing: Once you get the tech. part down, being able to time your moves just right is the next step to work on. Timing is important, because without it, you'll be swinging wildly with no meaning behind what you're doing.

Distance: Being able to judge how far you are from your opponent will dictate what you can/can't throw. You need to understand what tools you have and when they will function the best.

Speed: I put this last, because I feel that the other 3 need to be refined first. Without the first 3, it won't matter how fast you are, because you'll end up throwing something with poor tech., lousy timing and will probably miss, and you just may be out of range to make anything you throw work.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Actually I'll just go ahead and put mine up now.

My choices:

1) DISTANCE: You can have perfect technique, speed, and timing, but if you aren't in the right place to hit, you'll never hit the guy. This also plays a part in grappling for many moves, though the ranges are more subtle and precise.

2) TIMING: I put timing ahead of technique because you can have great technique and bad timing and still not get the hit, as well as put yourself in a BAD position. But if you are the right distance, and your timing is good, you can knock a guy out even with a sloppy punch. More than a few black belts have been knocked out by street fighters that had bad technique.

3) TECHNIQUE: Even if you do knock the guy out with a sloppy punch, what becomes of your hand. There are more than a few movie punches where one guy punches out another guy, then either breaks his hand. or has to shake it off. I ranked technique higher than speed becuase if you knock a guy out with a very fast punch and poor technique, you can mess up your hand all the more.

4) SPEED: If the other three things are in place, speed can only help you. If any of the other three are not there, speed can actually put you at a disadvantage.

Now, to be certain, I left things out. I left out targets, relative position, and power, etc. This was more of a discussion starter. Plus, in my oppionion, relative position falls under distance, targets fall under technique, and power is mass times velolicity, so it falls under speed and technique anyway.

 

[jarrod]

i think this is a bit like asking someone to prioritize grappling, striking, & throwing. it all depends on the individual & their gameplan.

for example, i would personally put speed & technique at the top, because i'm quick & have decent technique. these two attributes help me interfere with someone else's timing & distance. however, someone with very good timing & distance is very difficult to fight, & can often neutralize the other two attributes.

jf

 

[geezer]

i think this is a bit like asking someone to prioritize grappling, striking, & throwing. it all depends on the individual & their gameplan. for example, i would personally put speed & technique at the top, because i'm quick & have decent technique. these two attributes help me interfere with someone else's timing & distance. however, someone with very good timing & distance is very difficult to fight, & can often neutralize the other two attributes.
jf

I'd go even further and say this may be a fun mental exercise, but that's about all, since all these factors must work together to be effective in combat. Different folks break combat down in different ways to explain it. But good fighters all seem to have the different bases covered.

Escrima expert Rene Latosa breaks the essential concepts down into Power, Speed, Focus, Attitude, Transition and Balance. Speed, for him, is distance, timing and velocity. Having great velocity alone isn't enough if you have to cover a longer distance than your opponent. And if your timing is off, you won't find your opening to land your shot.

My Wing Tsun Sifu, Leung Ting, really emphisized the distance aspect...always teaching us to find the shortest line so you can "start later and arrive first". In a different way, he was saying the same thing.

My current Eskrima instructor, Martin Torres of DTE, recognizes the concepts used by Latosa, but emphasises Position which involves geting a superior angle and range. If you've got this, then you can bring the other factors into play.

My own conclusion, factoring in these informed opinions, as well as those posted here? They all matter. Try entering in a zero in any part of this equation and that's exactly the result you'll end up with! So what's the most important? Whichever one you are weakest at!

 

[jarrod]

i agree, all of these attributes are interrelated. like i mentioned, i have decent speed & tech, but throwing a fast, perfect punch doesn't do any good if you're throwing it right into someone's guard (timing) or crowding your punch, or falling short all together (distance).

jf

 

[bostonbomber]

This is a difficult question to answer. Because deficiencies in one of these attributes can be compensated by strengths in others, we can make all kinds of arguments about various rankings. For example, an old sifu/sensei with more well-executed techniques at his disposal can usually beat a younger faster student, or a really fast guy with good timing can often compensate for sub-par technique execution, etc.

In my opinion, the most important attribute is one that is not listed: CONFIDENCE. Without confidence in a fight, none of the others can work.

 

[tshadowchaser]

how are we ranking these? for the street or compitition? To me it might make a difference

 

[Kacey]

I can't rank them the way you're apparently asking; they're too inter-related. However, I would put technique and distance ahead of speed and timing - as without technique and distancing, speed and timing won't matter; you have to have proper technique, and understand how to apply it at the correct distance - or you have nothing to apply timing and speed to.

 

[Steve]

I'm curious to see how people rank these in order of importance:

SPEED
TECHNIQUE
DISTANCE
TIMING

I have my own answers, but I want to see other people's thoughts. Line these up in order of importance and give the reasons why you listed them in the order you did. I did not list these in order of their importance in my oppinion. I will on Monday.

For me, for grappling, categorizing these four is pretty easy:

Technique
Timing
Distance
Speed

Speed is handy, but so many of the best grapplers I've seen move in what looks like slow motion. They're not, of course, but they're in no hurry because their technique is so strong and their timing so well developed.

I would also add Fitness and Athleticism. Athleticism could be strength or agility. Basically, what your parents gave you. Fitness being what you've done with those gifts. At some point, a fit person will simply outlast a skilled person. Fitness can often overcome a lack of athleticism, as well. So, my list would look like this:

Technique
Timing
Fitness
Athleticism
Distance
Speed

 

[geezer]

For me, for grappling, categorizing these four is pretty easy:

Technique
Timing
Distance
Speed

Speed is handy, but so many of the best grapplers I've seen move in what looks like slow motion. They're not, of course, but they're in no hurry because their technique is so strong and their timing so well developed.

I would also add Fitness and Athleticism. Athleticism could be strength or agility. Basically, what your parents gave you. Fitness being what you've done with those gifts. At some point, a fit person will simply outlast a skilled person. Fitness can often overcome a lack of athleticism, as well. So, my list would look like this:

Technique
Timing
Fitness
Athleticism
Distance
Speed

This thread is getting really interesting. Fitness over technique, eh? Yep. And sometimes it can work the other way around too. Ever see a skilled old fox play it cool until his hot headed young opponent tires out, then snap! he makes his move. He may not be as fit, but he is more efficient.

Another factor is patience. In wrestling and grappling you see it a lot. One guy starts working a move...at first he doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, but slowly, very slowly, like a constricting python he gains inch by inch until "bam" he reaches the critical point, and the defence collapses.

Determination, or even desperation can play a role too. I'm a small guy in my fifties and I teach high school. Once in while some seventeen or eighteen year old kid will challenge me to something stupid like arm-wrestling, pull-ups, push-ups, etc. Usually, I beg off. But, if I can rig the deck in my favor, I'll often give it a go. For example if it is a big, tall kid, I know that I've got an edge in pull ups, since I'm only 5"8" and pretty lean. Short arms, light body = less work, you know. Still, sometimes I figure it wrong and the kid is stronger. But he hasn't figured on the desperation of an old man that refuses to lose. I may end up sore for weeks, but I haven't lost yet!

 

[thetruth]

Actually I'll just go ahead and put mine up now.

My choices:

1) DISTANCE: You can have perfect technique, speed, and timing, but if you aren't in the right place to hit, you'll never hit the guy. This also plays a part in grappling for many moves, though the ranges are more subtle and precise.

2) TIMING: I put timing ahead of technique because you can have great technique and bad timing and still not get the hit, as well as put yourself in a BAD position. But if you are the right distance, and your timing is good, you can knock a guy out even with a sloppy punch. More than a few black belts have been knocked out by street fighters that had bad technique.

3) TECHNIQUE: Even if you do knock the guy out with a sloppy punch, what becomes of your hand. There are more than a few movie punches where one guy punches out another guy, then either breaks his hand. or has to shake it off. I ranked technique higher than speed becuase if you knock a guy out with a very fast punch and poor technique, you can mess up your hand all the more.

4) SPEED: If the other three things are in place, speed can only help you. If any of the other three are not there, speed can actually put you at a disadvantage.

Now, to be certain, I left things out. I left out targets, relative position, and power, etc. This was more of a discussion starter. Plus, in my oppionion, relative position falls under distance, targets fall under technique, and power is mass times velolicity, so it falls under speed and technique anyway.

What good is timing if you have no techniques to train it with? Same with distance. If you teach techniques first the idea of distance starts to become apparent without even teaching it.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Cirdan]

I'm curious to see how people rank these in order of importance:

SPEED
TECHNIQUE
DISTANCE
TIMING

Those are all technique

 

[bluekey88]

Y'know...I'm going to modify my original answer. not the order but the idea. ALL those aspects are necessary to be sucessful...but the order is usually in how I think they should be emphasized when teaching. Start with technique...going sloe and deliberate. then add focus, speed and timing until it all comes together to create greater and greater power.

in execution, all of those factors need to be present. In treaching, start with technique and go from there with the goal of proper execution of everyhting in a holistic manner.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Josh Oakley]

This is why I started this thread. It's really cool to see IF someone prioritizes things, HOW they prioritize, and WHY they prioritize. I like that there was not one uniform answer. It got people thinking and that's what I like to see.

That's also why I didn't define what I mean by any of the terms I put out. Everyone comes in with their own definitions for these terms and they are inherent in the answers people have come up with.

 

[Steve]

This thread is getting really interesting. Fitness over technique, eh? Yep. And sometimes it can work the other way around too. Ever see a skilled old fox play it cool until his hot headed young opponent tires out, then snap! he makes his move. He may not be as fit, but he is more efficient.

Another factor is patience. In wrestling and grappling you see it a lot. One guy starts working a move...at first he doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, but slowly, very slowly, like a constricting python he gains inch by inch until "bam" he reaches the critical point, and the defence collapses.

Determination, or even desperation can play a role too. I'm a small guy in my fifties and I teach high school. Once in while some seventeen or eighteen year old kid will challenge me to something stupid like arm-wrestling, pull-ups, push-ups, etc. Usually, I beg off. But, if I can rig the deck in my favor, I'll often give it a go. For example if it is a big, tall kid, I know that I've got an edge in pull ups, since I'm only 5"8" and pretty lean. Short arms, light body = less work, you know. Still, sometimes I figure it wrong and the kid is stronger. But he hasn't figured on the desperation of an old man that refuses to lose. I may end up sore for weeks, but I haven't lost yet!

Fitness isn't more important than technique, but I've seen time and again a fit person "win" over a skilled but unfit person. I didn't mean to say that fitness is more important than technique. Only that fitness can trump technique and that I consider it among the most critical traits.

Cirdan, I respectfully disagree that these are all technique. I can teach the average guy a basic armbar defense in less than 1 hour. Within an hour, you would be able to demonstrate the technique, including all of the steps and details. It will take you months (longer, really) to develop the timing necessary to successfully defend a well executed armbar attempt. Very different things.

 

[hogstooth]

I'm curious to see how people rank these in order of importance:

SPEED
TECHNIQUE
DISTANCE
TIMING

I have my own answers, but I want to see other people's thoughts. Line these up in order of importance and give the reasons why you listed them in the order you did. I did not list these in order of their importance in my oppinion. I will on Monday.

Were is power?

Technique - Speed and power come from proper technique.
Distance - not a problem for me since I am 6'2" and have long reach.
Timing - comes with practice.