Levels of Training

[Shizen Shigoku]

Just felt like sharing some training notes. This is something I wrote back in February of this year.

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Bujinkan Florida Buyukai - 2003 Japan Daikomyosai Review Seminar​

In January, I attended an awesome seminar on budo taijutsu! It was a review of the training that went on at the latest Japan Daikomyosai. Five shidoshi that went to Japan last month gathered together to share what they learned from Hatsumi-sensei and the top Japanese shihan.​

There were at least 30 people in attendance altogether - students from all over Florida. The daikomyosai itself was a review of the year's training theme: Juppou Sesshou.

One of the shidoshi who helped organize the event, Rob Renner, opened the class with an outline of training focuses that he explained as a pyramidal hierarchy. The five levels are aspects of training that build upon eachother, and should be thought of as areas of training to focus on while practicing budo taijutsu.





Here is a rough sketch of the training levels hierarchy.

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The way I understand it, is to start at the bottom and work your way up when you feel ready to explore the other levels. An important point to remember is that if one is having trouble with a technique, then one should go back to the bottom of the pyramid and make sure that the footwork and posture are correct first and then move back up the pyramid to a comfortable level.


This way of training - focusing on whatever level is most useful to the particular practicioner - is the reason why students of all skill-levels practice the same techniques. Each one benefits because they are working/focusing on those aspects that are most useful to them personally.

Beginners, of course, focus mostly on basic body movement, and a little on martial technique. Intermediate-level students work more on martial technique and using natural principles such as gravity, timing, distance, and angles, but even the most-skilled students and instructors, while working on the higher levels of the pyramid, return to the lower levels while training to make sure that the proper foundation is strong before trying to perfect the more advanced areas of their technique.
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Feel free to share your thoughts on this concept.

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[Ronald R. Harbers]

Very interesting. Reminds me of the 5 tiered pagoda or 5 rings of Musashi Myomoto.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

This way of training - focusing on whatever level is most useful to the particular practicioner - is the reason why students of all skill-levels practice the same techniques.

Nowadays, it seems to me as this is not always the case. Many people who come home from Japan these days seem more like practitioners of "aiki-taijutsu" than budo taijutsu at times. And then there's people like Tim, of course...%-}

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Ronald R. Harbers: "Very interesting. Reminds me of the 5 tiered pagoda or 5 rings of Musashi Myomoto."

Or possibly the 5 elemental manifestations?

. . .

I was hoping someone would mention that, because it gives me an excuse to share some notes on another seminar I went to this year (Andrew Young shihan on roppou kuji no biken).

In regards to roppou kuji biken, the roppou was described in a similar way to the pyramidal hierarchy I touched on above.

Note the similarities:

Chi - earth: the physical body; health; strength; endurance; flexibility
Sui - water: the mind; use of weapons; flow
Ka - fire: force; use of techniques
Fuu - wind: subtlety; effortlessness
Kuu - void: natural principles; formlessness
Ishiki - energy of intention: above and beyond the 5 elements; the 5 elements plus ishiki forms the 'roppou' for the purpose of this discussion.

The five elements are lines that form together like a pentagram, with ishiki at its center. This makes it much different from a pyramidal pattern of ascention. Even if the five elements are stacked up with earth (most dense) at the bottom, and wind and void (least dense) at the top - ishiki isn't really above those like another level (although in a certain sense it is), it is more like ishiki runs through all the others like a central spine that the others attach to.

Now combine the two models and you get a three-dimensional pentagram - looks like a pentagram when viewed from above, but from the side, it rises like a coil or helix around the central axis of ishiki.

Okay, now that I got that visualization exercise out of the way - how can we use these models and conceptual patterns to further our training progress?

Of course, it makes sense to start training by building a foundation, and adding principles on top to rise to an advanced level, but why not start at the top?

Now humor me and imagine a pyramid with a pentagonal base - thus five faces. Each face represents an element and its corresponding aspect. The five training levels still stack vertically as before. Getting to the top of the pyramid would be the ultimate goal (that whole attaining zero thing). The top of a pyramid forms a point - zero cross-sectional area - formlessness. Further, at the top of the pyramid, there is equal and instantaneous access to any of the five sides. As well, the pinnacle point is located directly above the center of the base and is supported by a wide, strong foundation and all the intermediate supporting levels.

I'm not really trying to get anywhere with this, just putting some ideas out there.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

I'm going to use a separate post to address this:

Nimravus: "Nowadays, it seems to me as this is not always the case."

Do you mean that it seems to you that people of different skill levels do not practice the same techniques?

"Many people who come home from Japan these days seem more like practitioners of "aiki-taijutsu" than budo taijutsu at times."

How does this relate to the above, and how does it relate to what you quoted me saying?

"And then there's people like Tim, of course..."

Do you mean Tim Bathurst?

What do you think it means that people who train in Japan seem to be doing aiki-taijutsu?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Do you mean that it seems to you that people of different skill levels do not practice the same techniques?

Generally I find it easier nowadays than before to differentiate between advanced training and what beginners practice. On the other hand, the distinction between so-called "kata geiko" and "shinken gata" is at times impossible to make these days...you can PM me for further discussion on that.

How does this relate to the above, and how does it relate to what you quoted me saying?

This could be seen as a kind of thread hijacking on my part, and I apologize for that. I'll get to the point in a sec, it's just that I realize that this thread was maybe not the most appropriate place to have this particular discussion. Sorry about that. If anyone wants to continue discussing this you can PM me.

Do you mean Tim Bathurst?

What do you think it means that people who train in Japan seem to be doing aiki-taijutsu?

Yes, Tim Bathurst.
My point is this - while my first trip to Japan will be this year's Daikomyosai, I regularly train with people who go to Japan about 2-3 times a year, and the type of training they bring home with them always seems to be exceptionally fluid, dance-like, light to the touch and not as...well, direct and to the point, for lack of a better description. Now I want to make absolutely clear that there is NOTHING WRONG with this in itself, seeing as what we are learning is concepts and principles of movement rather than specifically "fighting techniques". However, a lot of Japan-inspired teaching these days gives me a sense of rather shallow comprehension on the teacher's part, as they simply demonstrate the movements taught to them without any regards of explaining or even finding the "essence" of what they're doing.
The fact that this happens shouldn't be seen as very surprising, for as we all know budo taijutsu is an extremely complex art with methods that are at times very difficult to understand.

But then you have those people who are able to actually do something with these principles and bring us mere mortals (for example, somewhere just below shodan as in my case) something coherent to work on and practice. I definitely count Tim as one of these, as I do Ed Martin and the instructors at my dojo. By this I do not mean that they water down what they have been taught in any way, just that some people value their taijutsu's connection to actual practicality more than others. Kind of difficult getting through the "shu" stage if you're getting "ha" and "ri" shoved down your throat at the same time, don't you think?

Again, sorry for hijacking this thread.

 

[Don Roley]

Isn't this model merely a more expanded version of the shu-ha-ri principle?

Of course, this pyramid goes straight to the problem faced in the Bujinkan a lot. People try to go to the top without a firm understanding of the basics. And then there are those that concentrate on the lower levels without ever getting to the "zero point" at the top. We call the latter "kata collectors." Stangely enough, the folks who seem to have this problem are not the guys who train ever week under competent instructors of the kata (like Noguchi, Oguri, etc) but those who mainly learn from sources like video tapes. At least, that has been my observation.

Then there is the other end of the extreme of people that have no real understanding of the basics that try to be creative and not be restrained by any sort of mere technique. Is it really too damn much to ask that you learn the technique exactly the way it was shown a few times before you start to "improve" on it? Yeah, it is nice that you can improvise when things go wrong instead of standing there like a deer in the headlights, but if you cannot do the technique like the instructor did doesn't that suggest that you might be missing several importand points that the teacher is trying to convey?

Sorry about the rant. I see a hell of a lot of this going on around me in class sometimes.

IMO, the following should be branded on the forehead of a heck of a lot of instructors.

but even the most-skilled students and instructors, while working on the higher levels of the pyramid, return to the lower levels while training to make sure that the proper foundation is strong before trying to perfect the more advanced areas of their technique.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Don Roley: "Isn't this model merely a more expanded version of the shu-ha-ri principle?"

Yes it is. A very astute observation there, Don!

To clarify for those that aren't familiar with the principle:

shu = obedience / imitation - learning the form
ha = divergence / variation - learning from the form
ri = breaking / separation - leaving the form behind

For a more thorough explanation, please see:

http://members.aol.com/Cunningham/ju01004.htm

or

http://www.advdojo.org/shuhari.html


"Of course, this pyramid goes straight to the problem faced in the Bujinkan a lot."

Yes, unfortunately that is true because of the great amount of freedom students and instructors have in learning and exploring techniques found in the bujinkan ryu. It is a personal responsibility of everyone - especially the instructor as dojo guide - to make sure that their own pyramid (or whatever structural metaphor you prefer) is strong. A house with a great frame but no plumbing, electrical, or furniture is empty and nearly useless, but it is just as bad as a great-looking, fully furnished house built on quicksand.

These complicated models aren't necessary of course, but they can be useful tools. Use them as you see fit.

There is another pattern of learning I've seen somewhere, and it is very general, but quite accurate.

One starts at unconscious incompetence (you don't know that you don't know), then progresses to conscious incompetence (you know that you don't know), then to conscious competence (you know that you know what you know), then finally unconscious competence (you know what you know without knowing that you know).

"Sorry about the rant. I see a hell of a lot of this going on around me in class sometimes."

I feel your pain, man. I see it all the time too. :cheers:

 

[Don Roley]

I wrote this almost a year ago on another board and thought it might serve as a good example of how Shu Ha Ri works in terms many of us can understand.

Ok,
Since I learn Japanese and teach English I tend to think in terms of language learning/ teaching.

Today I was teaching some fifth graders a lesson revolving around the use of the "to be" verb. Typically when teaching this in middle school the students will start out under the Japanese teacher learning a few "target sentances." These are sentences that contain the grammer point being learned. In terms of martial arts, you may think of them as being the kata and/ or the kihon.

In terms of todays lessons, these key sentances might be "This is a pen," "That is an egg" and/or "These are Shoes." The kids memorize these things before the teacher begins the lesson. This is what I would call "shu" in the Shu- Ha- Ri sequence. They are correct, concrete examples of the principle being taught.

When the teacher starts his lesson, the kids start to take apart the sentances and look at them from different angles. They learn the "why" behind the phrases. Then they start to do exercises that expand beyond the target sentances and push them to use the underlying principle. This is the "ha" section in terms of martial arts.

(And I have seen students that do great at memorizing sentances but never learn to use the underlying principles. These are the equivelent of Bujinkan kata collectors who never move beyond standard kata- usually learned from books, videos and notes with predictable results. Hatsumi once talked about people that clung to kata as being constipated. They did not take the nutrients from the form and discard the remains and are thus the same as people who are contipated. My concern is that many of the kata collectors I have seen have never eaten very well in the first place if you know what I mean.)

The last phase of "ri" is the goal we try to reach in language class. The kids no longer need to refer to grammer points or remember lessons, but can use them freely. In martial arts, instead of "when he throws a punch I do this" we want the students to move freely and create techniques out of thin air based on the principles of the art.

Ok, now the first step in teaching this stuff is the target sentances. These are concrete examples of the principle being taught. We do not start the lesson talking theory. They have no way to relate to things like that outside of their experience. We need to give them concrete examples for them to get that experience. This can be called the kihon happo in the Bujinkan.

But..... Do I have to use, "this is a pen"? Can't I use "this is a cat" instead? Of course I can! I am a native speaker and have enough knowledge to use other examples if I want. And the Japanese shihan like Noguchi have enough knowledge to know what is correct and incorrect Taijutsu, as well as knowing what needs to be part of the lesson for people to learn. Not just a part, but the whole picture. And of course it has to be correct.

The problem is that many visiting students take a look at the different ways the shihan do the kihon and conclude that anything goes. Then they come up with their own versions that contain a little of all they have learned. To use my language example, they say "This are an shoes." Oh yes, it contains parts of all the other sentances they have seen, but the end result is like Frankenstein's monster.

Noguchi knows enough about taijutsu that I trust his target sentances. I do not trust even one in a hundred gaijin who have made their target sentences. They may think they know enough to make their own sentances, but do they? As I said, it is the stuff we are not aware that we are ignorant of that will bite us in the tushy. So instead of coming up with our own examples, why not try to keep to the examples given by those we know have been training under Hatsumi for decades?

 

[heretic888]

Nice analogy, Don.

Interestingly enough, there are similar principles in Piagetian and Kohlbergian developmental psychology as well.

Piaget basically put forth a developmental hiearchy of cognition which involved:
1) pre-operational (preconventional and narcissistic, the individual at this stage lacks the capability to engage in 'operations' to solve problems)
2) concrete-operational (coventional and sociocentric, the individual learns to use concrete-literal rules and roles to approach problems)
3) formal-operational (postconventional, the individual steps back and develops the capacity to analyze the roles/rules they were taught and begins to formulate more universal principles of cognition that are less concrete)

Along with some other psychologists, I would also argue that there are various and far more rare "post-formal" stages too. That would be more in line with the shu-ha-ri concept.

Kohlberg put forth a developmental hiearchy of moral development, also:
1) egocentric (the individual only concerns himself with his own cares and wants, does things his own way no matter what)
2) sociocentric (the individual has adopted a 'group' mentality with particular rules and roles to live by, 'my country right or wrong')
3) worldcentric (the individual has stepped back to analyze his previous group preconceptions to adopt a more universalistic and humanistic stance)

Carol Gilligan, a noted feminist psychologist, put forth a similar developmental scheme called: 1) selfish, 2) care, 3) universal care.

Anyways, just thought I'd like to point out that there seems to be some rather striking commonalities in all these developmental lines (martial arts, language, cognition, and morals).

My two centz. :asian:

 

[Bigshadow]

I thought I would revive this thread...

One of the shidoshi who helped organize the event, Rob Renner, opened the class with an outline of training focuses that he explained as a pyramidal hierarchy. The five levels are aspects of training that build upon eachother, and should be thought of as areas of training to focus on while practicing budo taijutsu.

REF: As explained by him, in his post Training Hierarchy.

The way I understand it, is to start at the bottom and work your way up when you feel ready to explore the other levels.

After training with Rob for a couple of years, the many discussions with him, and my own personal experience in training while reflecting on the "Pyramid", I would say that when people train, they are working on all 5 levels, but their understanding and grasp may not be at all 5 levels. For instance the student who has been training for 2 months is experiencing all 5 levels during class, but it is likely they are preoccupied/learning the 1st level and possibly a small understanding of the 2nd level. The rest of the levels appears magical to them. It is over time we grasp the things on the higher levels as our knowledge and skill at the lower levels solidify. So I really don't think one can purposely train on a higher level until they are ready for that level. Much like climbing a mountain (in this case pyramid), one can see more the higher they climb.