lethway knockout

[destructautomaton]

i was watching some of the burmese fights and my friend said that there were some that a fighter could get knocked out cleanly .....they bring him to his corner and get him back then the fight can continue. I never heard of this in any other fights of someone getting ko'd and being able to continue in a match. does anyone know about this? is this true?

 

[Fede]

Hi DA,

I heard the same from a friend too, and this fact is mentioned in this video as well. It's crazy stuff. The video is very interesting, I am sure you will like it!

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Not all bouts are fought these days under the same rules. But what you are asking about is Second Chance bouts. This means if the bout has a second chance call in it, the person can be disabled(as in stunned, dropped down, wobbly in a way that he is unable to continue) or knocked out, the bout is stopped, he is brought back to his corner, resuscitated then the bout continues. He is thus given a second chance.

There are many different ways to fight bare knuckle. I particularly liked fighitng in the sand with the endless round but those bouts can go on forever. But it has the real authentic feel of the ancient fights. You have to find those type of fights which can be difficult.

The bouts these days are mostly fought in the main arenas in Yangon or Mandalay though they occur throughout the region at various intervals.

Second Chance is not always in play. When we prepped for foreigners to fight ,second chance generally wasnt in the rules. Cuts still remain an active way to stop the fight which flows down from the old days.

 

[Jimi]

I was under the impression that lethwei matches had a 3 knockout rule, 3 chances, just what i have been told. not trying to to disbute you Blackdiamond

 

[Jimi]

BTW many older fights had two refs within the ring as well, and I believe some still do. I am sure if you look into some resources you will see.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Yes, two refs in the ring was the original way and many bouts still have them. So its not lost and you will see it. In recent years, in the bigger stadiums, they shifted to one and its more common now. But outside of those type of big fights, there are two refs. In ancient times or before the suppression, even in thailand, they werent really refs in olden times, they were reps for each fighter to maintain order and to move in if they guy gave up. They continued with two in Burma making them into refs as time went on. If I remember correctly in the older burma vs thailand fights, there had one ref for the burmese fighter and one for the thai. But now they have one ref.

3 chances remains but plays out more like in boxing, but 3 kos I havent seen much outside of the old format fights like in the makeshift rings or in the sand. The 3 knockout rule obviously turned into second chance in the modern era but again not always in play. Phil Dunlap mentions this on his tape and he is correct because that was at one point the main determining rule of original lethwei. There is diversity in what type of lethwei match up its going to be and how it will be fought. Something I like alot about the sport personally. By the way, there was an issued organized and unified rule book for Lethwei. It was given to me in burma and I believe there was a translation or pieces of it translated on the web. I seem to remember it came from Phil or Phil posted it. I will have to check on that. You can consult that as well for a further more concise understanding. I have my translations and notes on it but its not with me right now so I am pulling from memory, so i could be off a bit. All the info everyone contributed here is correct to the best of my knowledge.

I think when people go to Burma and see the fights, they will generally see them in the big arenas in Yangon and Mandalay. So they will see one ref, the ref if its not a second chance, acting a big more quickly like a ref in any modern sporting event like muay thai or boxing. There are second chance rules for some matches so suddenly you might be shocked to see a guy dragged to his corner and revived and sent back out to fight. Refs whether one or two will stop lopsided fights in the ring. Fighters can also be disqualified even for a fight sport with little rules.

Now also you will see weight classes. In the old rules, it was just match ups, sometimes a visual or two people just agreeing to fight, or a head man would chose the people that fought. This is type of organizing the fight was done everywhere from India to Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, etc(where you see them matching fights by visual, and I actually show the correlation of that briefly between the burmese match ups from southern burma and the kushti event in delhi in the physical body 2 dvd). But the old ways of just creating match ups or letting two people who want to continues on outside of the big events. So it remains an active component.

Something I really love about modern Lethwei is that they usually start with three round fights, four round fights then the main five round fights. Since there is no amateur fighting in lethwei. This was a great way to start your fighting career, usually if a foreigner wants to go in I tell him to do a 3 rounder to get the feel for it. Its a great way to grow into the sport when they feel you are ready they advance you to the four rounder then to the five rounders. This is more modern in the advent of the rounds being used in Lethwei but one of the better additions for the sport.

One other thing I would like to mention. There are no decisions or judges in lethwei in any bout I ever seen. Its win, lose or a draw.

They do something because of it(having no judges and point deductions)and one tactic is to drop down to the ground to stop the action. If a fighters back hits the ground more preciously two shoulders from a throw, punch, etc, there is a stop of the action. In one bout I saw, the lightweight title holder was losing badly, i meaning his face was a mess, in desperation he threw his opponent beautifully and landed him on his back, his opponents shoulders and back cleanly hitting the ground, then followed with one of the best short spinning elbows i had ever seen, knocking the guy out.

The crowd was silent. The ref pulled the lightweight champ off the guy and instead of raising his hand, disqualified him. I had to watch the footage back with the promoter for him to break this down. Everyone in the crowd just shook their heads and quietly left since it was the main event. It was a clear foul and the ref was on it and the crowd understood. There were no protests.

There is a lot of different ways Lethwei can be fought from the old original way all the way across the big arena bouts fought with a bit more modern flair, but it remains Lethwei, those guys are the last of the true bare knuckle fighters in the region. Its a genuine link to the past.

 

[Fede]

Thank you for the explanation. That was really eye-opening and a good glimpse into the ways of lethwei and very, very detailed.

Mr. Dunlap also is a genuine and unbiased source of information coming from first hand experience, I could see that just from that short video. Concise and straight to the point.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Phil is a great guy to boot. I still have to check with him on the rules translations if he actually had it up or if it was someone else.

I just wanted to mention though its probably evident(because my second post might have been a bit cloudly on the issue) that in the more modern version of lethwei, 3 chances obviously became Second Chance. I think also it makes more sense if you are going to do something like that, that second chance is the best way to do it. Three times is a bit much! I think for once in crafting a more modern version of Lethwei, they have done some good things. The 3,4,5 round structure, the revision of 3 chances into second chance for certain bouts, the ref really watching the bouts closely, the ability to end a match on a DQ I think have done the sport good without changing it all the much.

One other thing I have seen that i havent seen in other places is that a fighter can have a second bout in the course of one evening. One fighter fought a full bout to a draw then another fighter dropped out and he went and fought another opponent and won. I was pretty impressed.

 

[Jimi]

I agree Blackdiamondcobra, it is very impressive to see such tough fighters working with such serious body weapons as , hands, feet, knees, elbows & headbutts hell even thows/takedowns and enduring enough damage to give a beaten fighter the chance to recover (2 or 3 times) and continue the bout. Also having the will to take on another match after enduring a fight already, tough as nails fighters no doubt!

Just a question for you Blackdiamondcobra (Not stirring the pot) honestly want your opinion. When I first learned of both Muay Thai & Bama Lethwei in the early 80's I also heard that some Lethwei matches also allowed a brief (1-2 sec) chance for follow up strikes after a throw or takedown. Example; If a fighter caught his opponents round kick and cut kick him down or as a punch defense hugged (Grappled) opponent & threw him down he could punch the opponent with 1-2 seconds after the takedown. I was under the impression that if fighters were entangled in a takedown they could exchange within a few moments of contact on the ground.

Is this my mis-understanding or mis-information? just wanna know.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Hi Jimi,
Yes, I think those techs after the fall are still permissable in certain bout rules. Many of the techniques I learned from the old lethwei masters involved double knee landings on the opponent as he dropped then impacts the ground, single knee drops into the chest, landing with elbows into the fallen opponent, etc. I believe these techs were used when they fought the original rules in the sand or soft dirt. It corresponds also to what i learned from the old bare knuckle thai and cambodian fighters and masters, you use the ground as a weapon of impact then try to stake or drive something into him to finish him.

I know you are correct as well that those techniques were taught and allowed because the old masters were some of the top Lethwei fighters of their period and were in their 80s when they showed them to me.

I still do see guys sneak in techniques when landing, so it works almost simultaneously, and thus plays by the rules. So in part they are still alive and viable.

The old fights in the sand with the endless round are still fought but you have to know when and you have to usually travel to them. You have to be really connected to know when they happen. I only caught the end of one and I am looking forward at some point to really watching a full two days of it. We did a sample bout with two fighters so I could film and see how it worked. It seems that old format lost favor for the big shows and is done as a regional thing.

I think as they moved toward using the ring, remember even using a ring, is modern, they shifted toward stopping it if the shoulders hit much like a pin in naban or champap or old wrestling.

There is one other thing I want to point out here which I talk alot about even in the thai and cambodian material, is that bare knuckle fighting had little to no rules, rules slowly came into being. So what we talk about here is usually the more modern makings of these systems. So I assume that that fight hit the ground and it could easily turn into a tussle there if one wanted to especially in a grudge match. People died during these matches in Thailand and thats what brought down the curtain on it, it was unregulated.

Even in Burma, people still die in matches but they sweep it away very quickly. One of the my favorite camps in Yangon who used to train in the stadium is gone now because one of their fighters was killed in the ring. They claimed the trainers put the fighter in unprepared and he died after his bout and they shut the camp down.

I also believe like I said there is a large avenue how lethwei can be fought as we are documenting here. I think before the british suppression you saw the original play always then after they struggled to bring it back, so you had some people playing it the old, original way, others revitalizing it with some modifications, and some moving it a bit toward the modern era with the use of the ring, slowly coming down to one ref, the rounds, etc.

The people who fight lethwei including the women are tough. They dont have the infrastructure or camps like thailand. They usually ramp up in time to fight for each event. Sometimes a camp is someone's backyard or out in the park, or in a stadium or if you are lucky a gym.

 

[Jimi]

Thanks Blackdiamondcobra,

I always thought it (Strikes after a takedown) a good aspect of Bama Lethwei relative to its battlefield history. With Modern Sporting rules being a safety to an extent for the longevity of athlete fighters some of the real battlefield/life or death self defense situations effectiveness is diminished alittle. Not being critical of modern regs, just defining what seems to be lost from some with the modern safety regulations.

Not saying Muay Thai, and Modern Bama Lathwei have no fangs so to speak, just that those systems within Muay Boran (MUAY- Pra Nakorn, Chaiya, Lopburi, Korat etc) and older Lethwei events are closer to the more brutal self defense needs history of such arts.

Even how Modern Krabi Krabong is shown today in the west is more of an honorable combat art (Though I trust many teaching Krabi Krabong do teach ground survival and ground finishing, just not all) than originally used on battlefields to defend Ayutthaya, which I imagine to protect home and family once a weapons bareing or emptyhanded enemy was felled they were to be finished quickly to better survive to protect loved ones.

Some cold blooded finishes on the ground (In arts from Burma, Siam, Laos Cambodia etc...) I can see as brutally effective. This goes along with my long time believe that (Contrary to many modern BBJ, MMA and other primarily grappling arts) in a life & death fight, he who hits the ground first usually dies. Note I said usually, lol.

I am not saying that grapplers skills can not help you on the battlefield to defend yourself and regain standing to escape and survive, I am just saying that the ancient battlefields were not full of fighters using UFC ground & pound style tackling weapon carrying soldiers into guard to finish them in the Triangle Choke or scrambling for a Rear Naked Choke or a Kimura.

Seeing that before western eyes saw things such as Muay Kaad Chuek, there were likely more tactics of finishing an opponent after a takedown quickly and coldly. This I am sure was within the arts from Burma, Siam, Laos, Cambodia etc... and it is those almost lost aspects of these arts many of us cherish and seek. These are some of the things that gave such tremendous power to these arts.

I always believed that if a westerner many years ago were to cross shins with these old (Royal Burmese, Royal Siamese etc... Boxers) Eastern Kickboxers, he would have a rude awakening once a kick or punch was neutralized and they were downed, that a cold kick, knee, punch, elbow etc... would likely finish the bout brutaly and abruptly.

Bama Lethwei Knock Outs, (wether in its near ancient form, in Mandalay, in Yangoon, or more Modern in the west like Baltimore or DC etc..., standing with punch, kick, knee, elbow & headbutt weapons or a follow up to a takedown/throw as a finish) are final and undesputable!

Respects to Bama Lehtwei! Hands in prayer position, claps hands 9 times overhead and returns to prayer position. Thanks for the enjoyable conversation Blackdiamondcobra. Jimi

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

The older combative versions of many of these arts fell into disuse in the advent of either splitting them off into safer sport versions or a change in how wars and sport were fought.

It was and still is my mission to document as much as the oldest of these combative traditions throughout SE Asia but they are in fact vanishing.

I dont know about the battlefield notions. I seem to believe many texts are romanticized, writing many of these techs backwards into history. The battlefield was fast and hard. I don't know how much hand to hand was played. The hand to hand bare knuckle split off from the battlefield techs to become an early sport. I think simple insertions of punches, kicks, trips etc worked within the battlefield weapons as we see in the very old material is real and was used for sure. But the spiking on the ground tactic used in bare knuckle is an example of a technique variation drawn from a weapons battlefield tactic. It was used to strike the opponent as he went down so you could kill him with a sword then vault up again to your feet. So some techs do descend from the battlefield but were translated into use in a bare knuckle context.

Even within the context of thai arts, the bare knuckle material fell away as the bare knuckle competitions died off, replaced by the burgeoning ring muay thai which was a total sport. The old masters tried to craft the old bare knuckle material into martial systems that could be taught but the lack of competitions lead them to stop polishing the techniques in that way. We also saw many of the old styles fall away completely or with only a few students remaining. Chaiya remains because of the work of the late Ajarn Khetr who wrote about the art and tried to structure it in a progressive way that could be taught to the thai youth as a part of their cultural heritage. His student the late Ajarn Thonglor carried it on less successfully but produced some students who have carried it forward for him.

We see the same with Krabi Krabong, there is a huge gulf between the old combative systems and the newer formatted physical education systems. They exist on totally opposite planes only utilizing the core strategies and philosophies but moving them in a different direction. I think within thailand the US, I am the only one who believes in the old combative ways and the idea of their complete survival. It has been one of the most fierce uphill battles i have ever faced. You would think in this day and age, it would be easy but its not.

In regards to Burmese bare knuckle, it seems to be slowly undergoing change as well. The older material is still with the old masters but if the young students or young masters don't teach it, it will eventually be lost. As they pull the techniques from active competition and they go into disuse often the new teachers will stop teaching them.

Sometimes in SE asia, they don't unfortunately see the viability of the old stuff, they see times changing and the lack of interest dwindling. The other problem is the very struggle for survival is tough within Burma so to add another struggle is a difficult path. The youth also find other pastimes to occupy themselves.

Many of the old masters in burma and thailand had a common feeling that the old matches that went on in an endless round were superior as a fight. It was not only a fight but a show of their power, virility and their ability to stand up and fight for as long as needed.

Grappling was in its original context a brutal affair from india all through SE Asia. But that too underwent change and slowly began to vanish as well. In thailand, it vanished all together though the old records show it was a very brutal affair based on the old grappling rules. Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam and others still have the old wrestling teachers. If you see it now it remains very close to sport.

I think there is tremendous viability in saving the old material but actually not many agree with me. Some believe the arts should just push forward. But my point was to let the old material remain so they have this huge index to draw from. The different sides and shades of these arts should remain for the students to experience.

Burma is still greatly unexplored martial arts wise. Lethwei is still alive and being played. How many masters continue the old ways is unknown. I have found many great ones who had extensive knowledge and ability. We hope they continue to teach and pass it on.

Who knows how much we have lost over time? Its a staggering notion that maybe we just keep reinventing the wheel because we keep losing the threads of the past.

 

[Fede]

Thank you for shedding some light on the possible link from battlefield to bareknuckle, there's been so much talk about it but not much of it made sense to me.
The battlefield was fast and hard for sure, it had to be that way. I wouldn't put my hands in the middle of a sword fight, only as a last resource or in case I had to regain the weapon I lost.

I think that we should look at some weapons like the ancient knuckleduster (with or without spikes) that would be perfect for a quick disabling or killing of the enemy if without swords, knives, spears....
I am thinking about the French trench knife now, no blade just a spike and the handle is a knuckle duster as in the video here:

This may act as a small proof of what we are discussing, it is even more pressing to finish it quickly and move on.
And warriors wore armors and protections too, so the best way must have been to stab and move forward.

I am shocked you are the only one promoting the old combatives, I mean that is the core of the old arts and they serve the very purpose of why they came into being. I like all aspects of Daab, and this is one of the most crucial ones.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Its an interesting discussion in itself the battlefield stuff vs how it filtered down through time and what remains. I think its very relevant to burmese martial arts because there is a vast reserve there that needs to be investigated especially in some of the isolated regions and places.

Its through the oldest methods we can see what was taught and how. I believe the bare knuckle material splintered off and evolved from the battlefield training into what would be called early tests of skill into a sport.

I am not the only one certainly trying to dig out the combative material or preserve it but i feel its an uphill battle for anyone trying to do that which it certainly shouldn't be. People maintain certain truths and dont want to revise or revisit things which needs to be done. In time the truth will rip down all that stuff. It just takes time.

 

[Fede]

I also think it is very intereseting. In ancient Greece and Rome they had really fierce bareknuckle fights and tournaments, and I guess there must have been a link between battlefield and bareknuckle here as well, which evolved in national contests with prizes an honour for the winners.

 

[destructautomaton]

Nice clip of dr maung gyi boxing against a guy named jeff goldberg in ny, dont know the year but its pretty interesting

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Dr. Gyi showed that footage to me some time ago and I have a dvd of it somewhere. Its a nice find. Dr. Gyi said it was bout against a boxer who outweighed him. Its a boxing bout not a lethwei or martial arts bout but it showed Dr. Gyi could give and take in different types of matches and against different weighted opponents. That is the late Sensei Peter Urban serving as referee.

 

[destructautomaton]

dr gyi looked fierce,id like to see the restof the footage if it comes out

 

[spartan_woman]

i was watching some of the burmese fights and my friend said that there were some that a fighter could get knocked out cleanly .....they bring him to his corner and get him back then the fight can continue. I never heard of this in any other fights of someone getting ko'd and being able to continue in a match. does anyone know about this? is this true?

Traditional Burmese Boxing (Lethwei, or Lethway) is alive and well in Burma and also in North Thailand (Mae Sot). That's where I went to try it. Most fights do allow one time-out (about 3 minutes) to recover after a KO. I believe that the 3KO rule applies only in Lerd Rit (a military form of lethwei) and I've never actually seen it.

The rope wraps are hard of course, but it's popular and some quite young people do it over there. They are mostly Thai or Burmese but an increasing number of Westerners have also taken up the challenge. I certainly don't regret trying it.

There's a good example of a fight with a time-out on YouTube.

 

[Tez3]

Traditional Burmese Boxing (Lethwei, or Lethway) is alive and well in Burma and also in North Thailand (Mae Sot). That's where I went to try it. Most fights do allow one time-out (about 3 minutes) to recover after a KO. I believe that the 3KO rule applies only in Lerd Rit (a military form of lethwei) and I've never actually seen it.

The rope wraps are hard of course, but it's popular and some quite young people do it over there. They are mostly Thai or Burmese but an increasing number of Westerners have also taken up the challenge. I certainly don't regret trying it.

There's a good example of a fight with a time-out on YouTube.

It would be good if you had some photos or video of yourself, my instructor goes regularly to Thailand as we are sponsored by Fairtex, he has a wide knowledge of martial arts and people in Thailand.