LEOs and MMA.

[arnisador]

I posted this on FMAT:

Beat Cops

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]Why the Police Are Becoming
Some of the World's Toughest Fighters[/FONT]

From the beginning, cage fighting -- an aggressive combination of punching, kicking, wrestling and carnage that is illegal in 18 states -- has had a fundamental challenge: Where to find the toughest, meanest, most violent people in the world who aren't already behind bars. Increasingly, the answer is the police station.


Some of the biggest names in this sport, whose main league is the Ultimate Fighting Championship, are police officers. Sean "the Cannon" Gannon, a Boston police officer, achieved notoriety when he defeated street fighter Kimbo Slice in a bare-knuckles, backyard brawl. "Big John" McCarthy is the most well-known referee; he just retired from his day job as defensive-tactics instructor for the Los Angeles Police Department.
[...]
Part of the reason officers are becoming contenders is that they're more skilled in fighting. Police departments are training their ranks in aggressive martial arts, like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, to combat crime, boost morale and cut down on the use of weapons. In Utah, most law-enforcement agencies still teach techniques based on Aikido, a defensive Japanese martial art that doesn't address hand-to-hand combat on the ground. But last year, the West Valley City police department in Utah enlisted professional fighters to teach moves from a range of martial arts, including punches and submission holds. Since launching the new program, the department says it has cut the use of Tasers by about one-third and the use of pepper spray by half.

A different take on this article:
Sean Gannon to Re-Emerge From Obscurity?

Although naming Gannon as one of “the biggest names in this sport” is laughable, the article does contain one very compelling bit of info regarding the relationship between law enforcement and MMA:

Here's a group that needs real (albeit somewhat specialized) self-defense...if this truly is a trend, I find it interesting!

 

[Jai]

Nice reading, both sides of it. I have to agree really that the future of MMA and some of it's toughest fighters of the future lay within the ranks of law enforcement.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Doesn't strike me as especially odd, since back in the day when it was boxers and wrestlers who had the "bad boy rep" on American streets back in past times, cops used to train in those too. More than one movie I watched from those times had someone playing a down and out boxer who'd retired or otherwise couldn't/didn't want to fight anymore, who always had a friend who suggested to him: "Well, there's always the department"......

 

[terryl965]

Well they do have to know how to fight so it seems to be the right place for them.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well they do have to know how to fight so it seems to be the right place for them.

Exactly, plus the fact most every idiot likely to go out and cause trouble is gonna imitate what they see on TV when they fight so, as a natural extension, MMA style stuff is what will be coming at these officers.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Exactly, plus the fact most every idiot likely to go out and cause trouble is gonna imitate what they see on TV when they fight so, as a natural extension, MMA style stuff is what will be coming at these officers.

Andy,

And that is why I wish they would stick to the old Matt Dillion 'Gunsmoke' shooting stances and Jet Li moviie type stunts on TV. Lots of people are watching and the more realistic and practicle the methods, the more it is possible for the idiots to know just enough to hurt someone.

I'm not saying censorship, but I just don't want them to so very good technique on TV.

Deaf

 

[KenpoTex]

It seems that a lot of LEO's are finally "waking up to smell the coffee" vis-a-vis the serious threat posed by an attacker with an even moderate level of MMA training (though, to their credit, there are quite a few who have been in the game for a long time)
There was a pretty good article by Steve Moses (Garland, Tx SWAT officer and firearms instructor) in the March issue of SWAT magazine that addressed this problem.

Here's a cool video on the topic from Burton Richardson

 

[MJS]

With all of the videos out there of LEOs getting into life and death struggles with violent suspects, I'm the first to say that many depts. are in serious need of revamping their self defense lessons. And yes, in discussions like this, people talk about the difference fighting someone under the influence vs. not under the influence, and yes, I see there is a difference. But, I feel that, esp. after watching some clips, there has to be a better way to bring someone under control.

As for these articles...I think its good. The level of conditioning that people get from MMA is awesome. These guys are in great shape and seem to have never ending cardio. Look at Randy. Of course, IMO, I feel that the training needs to be modified, as you can't expect a cop to do the same thing he does in the cage. In other words, its not the job of the cop to trade blows with a suspect, like he'd trade blows in the cage. But, if he can use the control/submission techs. to better control a suspect, thats great!

Some proponents of BJJ have used in their defense, that the military has adopted BJJ/MMA training. They claim this to justify its claim of "The Best" when people speak down on it. Well, if the military uses it, it must be good.

I work with a guy who's in the reserves. I've seen pictures of him, while he was in Iraq, in full gear. It'd be physically impossible for him to roll around with someone fully geared up. Now, this doesnt mean that the stuff thats taught to the military and LEOs can't be modified to suit their needs, what they're wearing, etc.

The Gracies offer their GRAPPLE program to LEOs. I assume its designed for them specifically and something different than you'd see in their typical grappling class for regular students.

Some MMA/BJJ training to supplement some solid empty hand/weapon work is a great mix IMO.

Mike

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

With all of the videos out there of LEOs getting into life and death struggles with violent suspects, I'm the first to say that many depts. are in serious need of revamping their self defense lessons. And yes, in discussions like this, people talk about the difference fighting someone under the influence vs. not under the influence, and yes, I see there is a difference. But, I feel that, esp. after watching some clips, there has to be a better way to bring someone under control.

As for these articles...I think its good. The level of conditioning that people get from MMA is awesome. These guys are in great shape and seem to have never ending cardio. Look at Randy. Of course, IMO, I feel that the training needs to be modified, as you can't expect a cop to do the same thing he does in the cage. In other words, its not the job of the cop to trade blows with a suspect, like he'd trade blows in the cage. But, if he can use the control/submission techs. to better control a suspect, thats great!

Some proponents of BJJ have used in their defense, that the military has adopted BJJ/MMA training. They claim this to justify its claim of "The Best" when people speak down on it. Well, if the military uses it, it must be good.

I work with a guy who's in the reserves. I've seen pictures of him, while he was in Iraq, in full gear. It'd be physically impossible for him to roll around with someone fully geared up. Now, this doesnt mean that the stuff thats taught to the military and LEOs can't be modified to suit their needs, what they're wearing, etc.

The Gracies offer their GRAPPLE program to LEOs. I assume its designed for them specifically and something different than you'd see in their typical grappling class for regular students.

Some MMA/BJJ training to supplement some solid empty hand/weapon work is a great mix IMO.

Mike

I have to agree Mike particularly with the last sentence that some MMA/BJJ training to supplement empty hand/weapon work is a great mix. I do not think that any one thing is correct all the time. However having arrested people in the past and eventually in most of those cases ending up on the ground MMA/BJJ training does help. It's weakeness of course is weapons training but it can be modified to account for that.

 

[jks9199]

There's a very simple reality involved.

Training takes time, costs money, introduces risk of injury, and can create a liability in the street if someone takes a MMA technique and hurts someone.

DT training is considered specialized enough that most states that certify LE instructors require separate DT instruction. This takes time and money. Time an officer spends in official training also means time that officer isn't on the street. An officer that gets injured in training means an officer not on the street, medical treatment costs, and more problems. And if an officer uses an MMA technique like a submission arm lock, and injures someone, there will almost certainly be a lawsuit... LOTS of money, even if everything was done properly. (I'm deliberately and consciously ignoring the whole MMA is a sport, cops don't do submission, etc. because all of that could be handled within a proper training system.)

Many agencies don't even do regular refreshers on BASIC DT. Even fewer require advancing training. Our academy provides an in-service groundfighting school; I've heard it's very good, but haven't had the time to take it. Which lets me highlight the time problem... Every state has various in-service training requirements and often adds new special new requirements for training, like anti-bias training or Alzheimer's, or dealing with purple people eaters... (Yeah, we do often think the topics are silly... and common sense.) It's hard to squeeze the training in.

Some to many cops do train in, or have practiced, various martial arts. Many of us start finding out quickly that what works on the street tends to be the most basic stuff...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Many of us start finding out quickly that what works on the street tends to be the most basic stuff...

Absolutely good basics are a must. Whether it is PPCT and Defensive Tactics, MMA, BJJ, Budo Taijutsu, Modern Arnis, Eskrima, Kali, IRT, Kempo, etc. Basic skill sets are essential if you are going to make what you do work. Big motor movements are also simply a must when everything goes south and your struggling for your life.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think it was last year I was checking out a local MMA school and they had a lot of LEOs as students. And I have tgo tell you if we had 36 hour days or if I didn't have to work I might go train MMA for a bit myself.

Also something interesting, at least to me, many of the top Sanshou fighters in China are also LEOs. Go to YouTube and you can find a lot of the LEO fights and there are even US LEOs vs. Chinese LEO fights as well.

Absolutely good basics are a must. Whether it is PPCT and Defensive Tactics, MMA, BJJ, Budo Taijutsu, Modern Arnis, Eskrima, Kali, IRT, Kempo, etc. Basic skill sets are essential if you are going to make what you do work. Big motor movements are also simply a must when everything goes south and your struggling for your life.

Agreed and the sad thing is that many of the TMA schools around today do not teach them with the same intensity that you will find in an MMA school or a Sports Sanshou school.

More than once I have seriously considered going to train at the local MMA School and I got to tell you even though I trained Police/Military Sanda (Sanshou) if there was a Sports Sanshou school in my area I would be there already. Nothing against MMA I just tend to be drawn more towards CMA.

 

[Imminent]

Okay, perhaps I am biased but the reality is that MMA or traditional MA training requires large amounts of time and are still based on social violence, i.e. they recognize rules and limitations. Training to survive life and death criminal violence does NOT take hours and hours of training. We teach it and instill proficiency in hours and days not weeks and months and years. MMA is still a sport and how many criminals are trained in any MA really, the most dangerous ones I know, many incarcerated for killing officers, judges, politicians and the like are physical wrecks with no formal training at all. The answer is very simple, induce reaction that can't be overridden and survival becomes one person doing it to another, it is NEVER a competition between skilled and unskilled, it is who gets to the point of inducing traumatic injury on the other first. Period. Just observing what the time on the street among goons and thugs teaches from my perspective for what it is worth.

 

[redfang]

In North Carolina, where I work and live, a group of LEO/MA's have developed a program called Keikan Aiki Jitsu, specifically for LEO's. They developed it as a belted program that blends Aikido, BJJ, striking techniques, pressure point techniques, with hand weapons, firearms, rapid deployment, handcuffing etc. As most of the instructors have TMA backgrounds, students of the program work on personalized Kata that utilizes LEO specific techniques. Later levels of the program familiarize students with TMA etiquite. Then, after they had worked out what they wanted, They sat down with Prof. Ernie Cates to smooth it out and get his seal of approval.

All in all it's a nice program for LEO's. Currently, a lot of the classes are offered through Wake Tech Community College in Raleigh. It's a fair piece from where I live, but I've been trying to get to some of the seminars that they are offering. Google Keikan Aiki Jitsu and it will pull up the Wake classes and the website of an Aikido school in Wilmington NC, that is run by one of the Keikan instructors.

 

[Dave Leverich]

Sounds like a great program redfang!
I know of some that do BJJ with emphasis on weapon control etc, but it sounds like this takes it to a completely new level.

 

[D Dempsey]

Sounds like a great program redfang!
I know of some that do BJJ with emphasis on weapon control etc, but it sounds like this takes it to a completely new level.

It isn't that much of a change really. I did it the first time when I was in the Army and I've done so a few times since with some of the LEOs that I do BJJ with. Since the main emphasis of BJJ is positional dominance and control it usually doesn't take the guys that long to adjust to a new element. I thought the most difficult was a with a knife.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

It has to be remembered that before, many of what we call traditional martial arts had the traditional methods of training in them... tough conditioning, tough fighting, etc. which would bankrupt many of them today with law suits and liability suits.

MMA in many instances has brought back the appeal of tough sparring.

On another note, most LEO's I know don't train more than their compulsory courses and trainings. They overpower with numbers and weapons. Why would they want to focus effort into having excellent skills when they can get by with the minimum and use their time in other pursuits that are to their liking?

LEO's that train are a minority. Just as people that train MMA are a HUGE minority. I say this from empirical evidence taking into account the number of MMA schools vs other martial arts schools that do not take a "tough" approach.

And to put it in context, the number if people that train martial methods at all is again, a huge minority.

I enjoy this topic. Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Tez3]

Sorry but a "huge minority" is an oxymoron.

 

[MJS]

Okay, perhaps I am biased but the reality is that MMA or traditional MA training requires large amounts of time and are still based on social violence, i.e. they recognize rules and limitations. Training to survive life and death criminal violence does NOT take hours and hours of training. We teach it and instill proficiency in hours and days not weeks and months and years. MMA is still a sport and how many criminals are trained in any MA really, the most dangerous ones I know, many incarcerated for killing officers, judges, politicians and the like are physical wrecks with no formal training at all. The answer is very simple, induce reaction that can't be overridden and survival becomes one person doing it to another, it is NEVER a competition between skilled and unskilled, it is who gets to the point of inducing traumatic injury on the other first. Period. Just observing what the time on the street among goons and thugs teaches from my perspective for what it is worth.

I beg to differ on a few points you made. While some things that are taught can be learned in a quick fashion, it doesn't mean that the student should cease practice. I'll use Krav Maga as an example. In a short time, they claim they can teach some effective stuff, and IMO, yes, they can. Its short, sweet and to the point. But, if you want to really be solid with something, its still going to require a refresher. It'd still be a good idea to run thru the material on a regular basis so you stay fresh. Even running some scenario drills is a good idea. If a cop fires his weapon just during the academy, and never goes to the range for practice, do you think he's going to be any better than someone who hits the range a few times a month?

If it was really possible to learn a few things and never have to do them again, the enrollment at every school in the world would be a quarter of what it is.

Mike

 

[Tez3]

I don't thnk the attraction of MMA for LEOs and the military is because of any self defence uses it has for them,most MA contain that. I think it's more the mind set of the fighters, the type of hard and disciplined training and the camaradie that suits them. LEOs and military people by their very nature are more inclined to step forward and put themselves on the line, we have quite a few fireman who also fight here and they all have in common their more adventurous natures where if they are interested in a martial art they want it to be one that stretches and challenges them. I'm sure there are TMAs that can go this but the other advantage of MMA we've found for our soldiers is that there is no syllabus to follow so when they are unable to come to class because of duties, deployments etc they aren't missing anything as they can pick up where they left off when they are able to return.