Law Enforcer's Training

[donald]

Do the hand to hand requirements differ city to city? How about county, to county, or even state to state? It seems that some get a pretty fair amont of training(LA County Cal.), and others get sorta nil ! I was watching one of the Police on tape shows a week, or so ago. At least 2 of these episodes featured cops getting seriously whooped. One poor guy just was getting pounded, and kept trying to reach for his weapon! It was'nt a matter of the perp being a monster either. They were about the same size, but 1st the perp got the drop(sucker punch)on him. I think if he(the officer)would have had hand to hand principles drilled into him. He would'nt have given the attacker the opportunity to drill him. After the perp saw the officer going for the weapon. Then you guessed it. The officer had to fight doubly hard. Just to keep the guy from getting his gun. The other clip was of 2 officers getting thumped by one guy. Again it appeared to be a lack of serious hand to hand training. Those clips really got me to thinking. Are our cops as well trained as they SHOULD be? Any informed thoughts on this?
1stJohn1:9

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It definately varies from place to place. However most officers receive some type of basic training while going through the academy. After that it is up to their individual department or their desire to seek out effective training themselves.

 

[Drac]

It definately varies from place to place However most officers receive some type of basic training while going through the academy.

Ya beat me to it Brian..It varies from State to State...The academy that I attended is VERY different than the one I teach at

After that it is up to their individual department or their desire to seek out effective training themselves.

Although most of them don't because it will intefer with bowling, softball or darts..I have been told many times that they don't need any of that "Karotty" crap because they carry a gun..

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Ya beat me to it Brian..It varies from State to State...The academy that I attended is VERY different than the one I teach at




Although most of them don't because it will intefer with bowling, softball or darts..I have been told many times that they don't need any of that "Karotty" crap because they carry a gun..

Yes unfortunately this is the mindset with some.

 

[terryl965]

well Brian and drac xum it up but it is to bad they do not require on going training.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

well Brian and drac xum it up but it is to bad they do not require on going training.

Some departments do and other's do not. Locally we have one department that trains all the time then another one that really does not train at all. :idunno:

 

[jdinca]

Unfortunately, it varies widely and many don't do anything beyond what they learn in the academy. About a year ago I watched to officers wrestle with a belligerant SOB for several minutes until one of them could mace him in the face. As a result, we all ended up with mace in the face. Had he truly been intent on hurting them, as opposed to just being a turd, it would have been a very different situation. Unfortunately, it's something I've seen a number of times. I truly appreciate those that know how to end the situation long before it gets to sticks and guns.

 

[jks9199]

Defensive tactics training for law enforcement is hugely variable -- but there are some common issues.

The simple fact is that, today in the US, we're getting more and more recruits who have never been in a real fight; some of them have never even played contact sports! And there's a lot to teach in DT, without much time to do it in. In a 26 week academy, you're looking at around 100 hours of DT training, sandwiched in with lots of classroom on topics as diverse as dealing with mentally ill and how to fill out a summons, PT, driving, and firearms. In that 100 hours, they simply try to shove enough basic concepts/techniques down the recruits throat to give them a chance to survive, and to successfully restrain and arrest someone. They've got to cover arrest techniques (including how to safely and properly apply & remove handcuffs), empty hand techniques, baton techniques and other intermediate techniques and tools like pepper spray and (in more and more agencies) Tasers, how to search someone, how to search a building, how to work with other officers, and more.

Then, many agencies don't provide much in-service training, or encouragment to seek it on your own, in physical defensive tactics. After all, that rookie has to get advanced classes on specialized investigations (robbery, burglary, homicide, etc.) or tools (bicycle school, motor school, or others), the ever changing laws, and just plain admin stuff. And DT training carries a risk of injury, as well as simply taking time. Most agencies in the US are under 20 officers strong; they don't have a lot of leeway for someone to attend a class -- and they don't have a lot of budget, either.

 

[charyuop]

Although most of them don't because it will intefer with bowling, softball or darts..I have been told many times that they don't need any of that "Karotty" crap because they carry a gun..

Unfortunately I don't recall who said that, but I remember it was a LEO who comes to this forum.
They were talking in a thread about side training out of his official training. I remember well that the LEO didn't want his supervisors to know about his training because if he had to use what learnt outside of his official training he could get in trouble.

So, should LEO train in MAs or not?

 

[Carol]

Unfortunately I don't recall who said that, but I remember it was a LEO who comes to this forum.
They were talking in a thread about side training out of his official training. I remember well that the LEO didn't want his supervisors to know about his training because if he had to use what learnt outside of his official training he could get in trouble.

So, should LEO train in MAs or not?

Yes but it is up to the individual LEO to apply what he learns in a way that is consistent with departmental standards. Civilians can strike an attacker in targets (eyes, groin, temple, etc) that a LEO cannot. Even LEOs can have misguided perceptions of martial arts...it may have just been easier for that one individual to not mention his MA training.

 

[donald]

I started this because I was absolutely mortified(yeah I said mortified)by the clips on that program. I do understand that there are things a cop can't do during an arrest, but I am talking about an arrest gone awry. I can't believe an officer would be congratulated for using deadly force. When they could have ended it by breaking an arm, or leg. I firmly believe that the officers I watched get pummeled. If properly trained, could have taken control of the situation much,much, faster. The one with the 2 cops being schooled was absolutely unreal. Actually both clips were unreal. If the one with the single officer would have gone any longer. It could have turned out real sad. I just don't get the thinking of superiors,city councils, or whomever. These people put them selves in harms way. Some on an absolutely daily basis. This hard core training should be mandatory for every Peace Officer in the nation. Our local Dept. is just now making physical testing a yearly thing. Sort of like the USMC's continued fitness program. I guess I have ranted enough, Drakes anyone?
1stJohn1:9

 

[Drac]

Then, many agencies don't provide much in-service training, or encouragment to seek it on your own, in physical defensive tactics. After all, that rookie has to get advanced classes on specialized investigations (robbery, burglary, homicide, etc.) or tools (bicycle school, motor school, or others), the ever changing laws, and just plain admin stuff. And DT training carries a risk of injury, as well as simply taking time. Most agencies in the US are under 20 officers strong; they don't have a lot of leeway for someone to attend a class -- and they don't have a lot of budget, either.

An EXCELLENT post...Here is something that will give you MA's a laugh...Can you guess which budget gets slashed when money is a little short?? Yep, you guessed it TRAINING...The township I work in just swore in a Chief that has a serious backround in S.W.A.T and is BIG on training..At the request of the Training Sgt I just submitted an outline for a refresher course in subject control..Wish me luck...

 

[Drac]

Unfortunately I don't recall who said that, but I remember it was a LEO who comes to this forum.
They were talking in a thread about side training out of his official training. I remember well that the LEO didn't want his supervisors to know about his training because if he had to use what learnt outside of his official training he could get in trouble.

So, should LEO train in MAs or not?

I remember it too, although I cannot recall WHERE it was posted...Yes, LEO's, Matrons. Jailers, Private Security should train in SOME type of MA..If they are put off by the bowing, barefoot and Gi's they should look for a boxing gym..The ability to throw a good punch and how to move would be great assets..

 

[kidswarrior]

An EXCELLENT post...Here is something that will give you MA's a laugh...Can you guess which budget gets slashed when money is a little short?? Yep, you guessed it TRAINING...The township I work in just swore in a Chief that has a serious backround in S.W.A.T and is BIG on training..At the request of the Training Sgt I just submitted an outline for a refresher course in subject control..Wish me luck...

GOOD LUCK! Having spent the last couple decades in a major bureucracy myself, I know The Way We've Always Done It usually trumps any proposed change. But you've got a fresh wind blowing, so maybe.... Anyway, best wishes.

 

[Drac]

GOOD LUCK! Having spent the last couple decades in a major bureucracy myself, I know The Way We've Always Done It usually trumps any proposed change. But you've got a fresh wind blowing, so maybe.... Anyway, best wishes.

Thanks..Only time will tell...

 

[redfang]

The academy in the city where I work does an excellent job with DT and instilling an officer safety mindset through out the academy. However, once you have graduated, then there is nothing but a one day refresher during inservice once every two years. There are a number of officers who train on there own, but there are just as many who do not.

 

[Drac]

The academy in the city where I work does an excellent job with DT and instilling an officer safety mindset through out the academy. However, once you have graduated, then there is nothing but a one day refresher during inservice once every two years. There are a number of officers who train on there own, but there are just as many who do not.

The only group up here where yearly updates in hand-to-hand are MANDATORY by the LE governing body are jailers, and that's only 12 hours a year..Sad, ain't it????

 

[jks9199]

Unfortunately I don't recall who said that, but I remember it was a LEO who comes to this forum.
They were talking in a thread about side training out of his official training. I remember well that the LEO didn't want his supervisors to know about his training because if he had to use what learnt outside of his official training he could get in trouble.

So, should LEO train in MAs or not?

It's a personal decision, that has to be made in light of the individual officer's interests, the agency's policies and attitudes (unwritten attitudes can be more important than the written policy in many cases), the types of situations he or she is likely to encounter, how prepared they are for those situations and what's available in the area.

I think every LEO can benefit from on-going defensive tactics training and refreshers, covering all of what we do, and tailored to what we do. That training should be both physical and classroom. The simple reality is that many commercial martial arts schools are not geared to provide the type of training a working cop needs. We have almost contradictory goals; we have to subdue a violent person using only that force which is reasonable and appropriate. (Note, please, that I did NOT say minimum force!) Lots of martial arts training isn't geared that way; if it's effective self defense (often a big if), it's about total domination and destruction. And often -- it's not really about effective self defense; it's about sports or personal perfection or whatever.

 

[jks9199]

I started this because I was absolutely mortified(yeah I said mortified)by the clips on that program. I do understand that there are things a cop can't do during an arrest, but I am talking about an arrest gone awry. I can't believe an officer would be congratulated for using deadly force. When they could have ended it by breaking an arm, or leg. I firmly believe that the officers I watched get pummeled. If properly trained, could have taken control of the situation much,much, faster. The one with the 2 cops being schooled was absolutely unreal. Actually both clips were unreal. If the one with the single officer would have gone any longer. It could have turned out real sad. I just don't get the thinking of superiors,city councils, or whomever. These people put them selves in harms way. Some on an absolutely daily basis. This hard core training should be mandatory for every Peace Officer in the nation. Our local Dept. is just now making physical testing a yearly thing. Sort of like the USMC's continued fitness program. I guess I have ranted enough, Drakes anyone?
1stJohn1:9

Let me make some observations here.

The first one is simple. Real world self defense/defensive tactics/fights aren't pretty like they are in the movies and tv. There's a whole lot of misperceptions about use-of-force issues that are fostered by tv, movies and martial arts instructors. It's just seldom pretty and nice when it's for real... Bad guys don't line up and just fall down nicely, good guys don't magically, easily coordinate their actions (I've been hit harder by the guys on my side than the bad guys!), and it doesn't take just one shot to end the fight...

Tied to that... a lot of cops develop false expectations of compliance, as rookies and as vets. The first real fight I had... I froze. Despite years of martial arts training and what I believe is one of the best academies in the country. I was the COP! I was the POLICE! What was this guy doing, not doing what I said?! And it happens to vets, too, because for years, you deal with people who mouth off, but do what they're told with maybe a little persuasion. One of my partners and I respond to a domestic dispute one day; we'd dealt with the guy a few weeks earlier, and he came meek as a kitten that time. Well... we missed a few signs (hindsight's great...), and she moved in to tap him on the shoulder since he was ignoring us. He backfisted her. (I arranged a high velocity introduction to Mr. Couch for him...and he only got Mr. Couch because it happened to be there, or it'd have been Mr. Floor.) She expected him to comply based on the last time we talked to him, and her experiences to date. He didn't...

Finally, there's another factor in what's happening. A cop today can easily have force options that include simple verbal commands, a variety of hands-on techniques that include strikes, compliance holds, and pressure points, intermediate options like batons and pepper spray, "higher intermediate" or "less lethal" options like Tasers or "extended range kinetic energy weapons" AKA bean bag rounds, and lethal options like his pistol, shotgun and rifle. That's a hell of a lot to sort through under pressure; I know that I've gone hands-on when I could have justified pepper spray or baton strikes precisely because I just didn't think of the others in time.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Let me make some observations here.

The first one is simple. Real world self defense/defensive tactics/fights aren't pretty like they are in the movies and tv. There's a whole lot of misperceptions about use-of-force issues that are fostered by tv, movies and martial arts instructors. It's just seldom pretty and nice when it's for real... Bad guys don't line up and just fall down nicely, good guys don't magically, easily coordinate their actions (I've been hit harder by the guys on my side than the bad guys!), and it doesn't take just one shot to end the fight...

Tied to that... a lot of cops develop false expectations of compliance, as rookies and as vets. The first real fight I had... I froze. Despite years of martial arts training and what I believe is one of the best academies in the country. I was the COP! I was the POLICE! What was this guy doing, not doing what I said?! And it happens to vets, too, because for years, you deal with people who mouth off, but do what they're told with maybe a little persuasion. One of my partners and I respond to a domestic dispute one day; we'd dealt with the guy a few weeks earlier, and he came meek as a kitten that time. Well... we missed a few signs (hindsight's great...), and she moved in to tap him on the shoulder since he was ignoring us. He backfisted her. (I arranged a high velocity introduction to Mr. Couch for him...and he only got Mr. Couch because it happened to be there, or it'd have been Mr. Floor.) She expected him to comply based on the last time we talked to him, and her experiences to date. He didn't...

Finally, there's another factor in what's happening. A cop today can easily have force options that include simple verbal commands, a variety of hands-on techniques that include strikes, compliance holds, and pressure points, intermediate options like batons and pepper spray, "higher intermediate" or "less lethal" options like Tasers or "extended range kinetic energy weapons" AKA bean bag rounds, and lethal options like his pistol, shotgun and rifle. That's a hell of a lot to sort through under pressure; I know that I've gone hands-on when I could have justified pepper spray or baton strikes precisely because I just didn't think of the others in time.

This is definately a very valid point in that real self defense and personal protection situations are very, very rarely pretty. Most of the time they are simply chaotic and things tend not to work ideally like they do in training. Add to the factor that you have multiple things happening and simply put even a good outcome ie. police subdue perpetrator and nobody is seriously hurt and it could still look simply horrible in the moment.