Lack of Professional Courtesy Among Martial Artists

[Indie12]

Is it me, or is there a lack of professional courtesy among Martial Artists?

(Unless your of the same organization, rank, and system) It seems like Martial Arts Instructors don't have the sense of professional courtesy to other organizations, systems, or Instructors (not among there organizations).


What's everyone's opinion?

 

[Steve]

What leads you to believe this? I haven't encountered it myself. What's your experience been?

 

[Cyriacus]

Ive seen no such issue whatsoever.

Perhaps this is localised to your Area, or 1-2 single places, which may be causing you to unintentionally generalise?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think that in a country where people don't know the difference between your and you're, or their, there and they're, it's likely that other portions of their upbringing and education are lacking as well.

 

[Indie12]

I have had personal experiences both professional and personal. I was just wondering if anyone else had this issue?
Example: Cold shoulders, run arounds, being ignored, not having phone calls, e-mails, or notices returned, attitudes from other Instructors (such as talking down or ignored).

Dirty Dog, I'd have to disagree, sometimes people type and don't think!!!

 

[SuperFLY]

one or a few incidents encountered by one group doesnt indicate a worldwide problem. 99% of the time its down to the individual.

we have a different class not associated with us training after our lesson on thursdays. they wait outside the dojo until we leave. we try not to hang about and hold them up. always say hi, show respect etc.. when we cross paths. i see no reason why anyone should behave differently unless that particular person is disrespectful in his daily life. (although you would hope martial arts would help instil that, its not a given)

 

[tshadowchaser]

I find that is is the person not the style, organisation or system that is to blame.
There are individuals in my area who will yell at their students id the student is seen talking with me but I have many friends in other schools that teach the same system.
I have know instructors that forbid their students to talk with other students from different systems. However others teaching the same system had open doors to all that wanted to walk in and some even encouraged their students to visit other schools to gain knowledge of that system

 

[Indie12]

I think you say it depends on either the Individual or Organization/Instructor/System.

And I would disagree, I believe their is a lack of professional courtesy among Martial Artists. Unlike, other professions where courtesy is common and shared, Martial Arts tends to have the (1 way look) attitude towards what they might consider "competition". It's almost (not saying this is true everywhere) if you try to speak, or contact an Instructor, not as a potential student, they'd rather not return the favor. It's almost the "Give me green" mentality.

 

[jks9199]

I think you say it depends on either the Individual or Organization/Instructor/System.

And I would disagree, I believe their is a lack of professional courtesy among Martial Artists. Unlike, other professions where courtesy is common and shared, Martial Arts tends to have the (1 way look) attitude towards what they might consider "competition". It's almost (not saying this is true everywhere) if you try to speak, or contact an Instructor, not as a potential student, they'd rather not return the favor. It's almost the "Give me green" mentality.

Can you explain a little more about what you mean? I've got to say, there have been a very small minority of instructors (NOT limited to commercial places!) who were discourteous or disrespectful in my experience. Some of them have undoubtedly simply been caught in the moment -- like trying to talk when they've got students about to compete. Others? Maybe they're just jerks. EVERY group has it's jerks.

I have run into a few martial arts of various ranks that were disrespectful until they found out I was a black belt... and a few very traditional types who were offended that an inferior rank dared speak to the exalted grand llama-poobah without having the appropriate intermediary start the conversation.

 

[MJS]

Is it me, or is there a lack of professional courtesy among Martial Artists?

(Unless your of the same organization, rank, and system) It seems like Martial Arts Instructors don't have the sense of professional courtesy to other organizations, systems, or Instructors (not among there organizations).


What's everyone's opinion?

I've seen it first hand. Usually, for me, unless someone does something to give me a reason to dislike them, I usually dont have any issues with any teacher, org, art, etc. Are there people out there that are fake? Yes. Are there people out there that do things that aren't right, moral wise? Yes. If someone asks me about those people or if I've had personal dealings with those people, then yes, I have no issues with talking about them. The difference is, is that when I talk about them, I'm not making things up, I'm speaking of actual things that've happened.

I'm not the martial arts police, and I dont care to be. But, like I said, if someone asks me a question and I know the answer, I'll answer it.

 

[Indie12]

I guess to put it simply is professional courtesy among communication. Among Instructors, and among Martial Artists in general. It's almost as though (not saying this is with every Instructor and/or Organization) that unless your gonna them 'greens' or your a member of their organization, it's almost a burden to talk to you.

I guess I mean simple communication and respect. I've personally seen both good and bad communication among Martial Artists. For some reason unlike other industries (for example, I work in Emergency Services, where professional courtesy and respect is very common, regardless) I don't see much in the Martial Arts industry when it comes to Instructor/Instructor communication.

Here's an example:

Simply walking into a school, introducing yourself (to another Instructor of the same style) and simply as a courtesy making conversation and asking a question of some sort, them giving you the cold shoulder, as soon as they find out your not a potential student, or ignoring you entirely. Or emailing an Instructor in reference to a question about a potential student for their school or a question of help, and not returning any e-mails (until the 5th or 6th time), or calling and not having phone calls returned, even though they know you are a Martial Arts Instructor.


Doesn't good customer service skills require common courtesy? Isn't the point of a business relationship and/or Instructor/Instructor relationship common courtesy, especially in Professional Courtesy. Seems like (and again just from my experience) that many Instructors (not all, perhaps only a small few) lack good quality customer service skills and professional courtesy?

 

[Indie12]

I've seen it first hand. Usually, for me, unless someone does something to give me a reason to dislike them, I usually dont have any issues with any teacher, org, art, etc. Are there people out there that are fake? Yes. Are there people out there that do things that aren't right, moral wise? Yes. If someone asks me about those people or if I've had personal dealings with those people, then yes, I have no issues with talking about them. The difference is, is that when I talk about them, I'm not making things up, I'm speaking of actual things that've happened.

I'm not the martial arts police, and I dont care to be. But, like I said, if someone asks me a question and I know the answer, I'll answer it.

Sr. Grandmaster,

I'm the same way, I guess that's what I'm trying to get at. Is the lack of professional courtesy among Martial Artists to simply either answer straightforward questions with respect, or respond to questions in genereal. In my experience for whatever reason (and I'm taking experiences from other Instructors I've spoken to) that seems to lacking, is response and respect.

 

[Indie12]

Can you explain a little more about what you mean? I've got to say, there have been a very small minority of instructors (NOT limited to commercial places!) who were discourteous or disrespectful in my experience. Some of them have undoubtedly simply been caught in the moment -- like trying to talk when they've got students about to compete. Others? Maybe they're just jerks. EVERY group has it's jerks.

I have run into a few martial arts of various ranks that were disrespectful until they found out I was a black belt... and a few very traditional types who were offended that an inferior rank dared speak to the exalted grand llama-poobah without having the appropriate intermediary start the conversation.

jks9199,

Yeah, I've had the same run-ins. Unfortunately in my experience, another Instructor knowing your a Black Belt can either greatly help you or deeply hurt tour chances at interaction with that individual. Fortunately for me, I've had more good experiences with them knowing I was a Black Belt then bad. Of course you always get those ones who think just because your lower Dan rank, and their an 8th degree Black Belt, that you have no right questioning them. Especially if your NOT a student of them!

 

[MJS]

Sr. Grandmaster,

Just to clarify, I'm not a GM. The Sr. GM that you see, is the martial talk 'rank' that everyone gets, which goes on how many posts you have. I'm a 4th degree BB, and have many, many, many years to go, before I'd even want to be called GM. This talks a bit about it.

I'm the same way, I guess that's what I'm trying to get at. Is the lack of professional courtesy among Martial Artists to simply either answer straightforward questions with respect, or respond to questions in genereal. In my experience for whatever reason (and I'm taking experiences from other Instructors I've spoken to) that seems to lacking, is response and respect.

I have always been of the belief that respect is a 2 way street. I think its possible to give a respectful answer about someone, while at the same time, still being honest. It will probably sound like I'm being disrespectful because of what I'm saying. In other words, someone may say, "How could you say that about him? Thats not very nice." But, like I said, IMO, its the way its said, and if someone gets offended at an honest answer, well, I dont know what to tell them...lol.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Only online, never experienced it in person.

 

[frank raud]

Here's an example:

Simply walking into a school, introducing yourself (to another Instructor of the same style) and simply as a courtesy making conversation and asking a question of some sort, them giving you the cold shoulder, as soon as they find out your not a potential student, or ignoring you entirely. Or emailing an Instructor in reference to a question about a potential student for their school or a question of help, and not returning any e-mails (until the 5th or 6th time), or calling and not having phone calls returned, even though they know you are a Martial Arts Instructor.
QUOTE]

Well, you could look at this as walking into a place of business, announcing you are not a paying customer, nor having the potential to be one, and then wondering why you are being ignored by the staff.

 

[JohnEdward]

I am not sure. I will take this opportunity to give my view without bashing anyone or style too much .

If you are new to the martial arts here is my experience. This is to those who are new reading this. I will deal with the Japanese arts only as that is my experience.

Koryu arts. Fancy Japanese name for a line drawn the sidewalk in chalk by the Japanese to demarcate old traditional arts from new modern arts. Well traditional ones like kenjujtsu, jujutsu, sojujutsu, etc. were all about the samurai methods of killing, being separate from the modern martial way, Gendai arts. like Kendo, Karate,Judo, Aikido, Iaido etc. In a western context it is the Japan's sport/recreational activities, evolved from Koryu arts. Just as gymnastics evolved from warfare. Gendai arts have a modern thinking and approach, Koryu is the opposite and sticks to tradition.

Koryu sticks to tradition and that old Samurai tradition wasn't about customer service. It was about secrecy to the extent you didn't want your enemy to know your killing methods. These was no seminars or clinics. It was all in-house. Because of that and the fact Koryu is old and follows tradition they are perceived as snobby. My experience is, cold shoulders, ignored, etc. not all the time of course. But in general. In Japan it is hard to distinguish that from you just being non-Japanese, that is after the Honeymoon is over. Gendai art are less like that open and not closed to outsiders. Gendai arts tend to be on the more on the business side, and will be customer orientated and markets for students. They don't weed out like Koryu does, and are more friendly and accommodating. Now the exception is those Gendai schools like Kendo who hang on to some tradition and will weed out weak students, and will test a person's desire to train as a good Koryu does.

If you don't know the difference the two before you walk into a school and get hit with a cool shoulder, look at the school is it a Koryu or a Gendai school. Look at how heavily they are involved in tradition, and ceremony if it looks like they take their poop way too seriously and seem competitive your probably in Koryu school. If it is the opposite your probably in Gendai school.

People often get turned off from martial arts because the walk into a Koryu school and don't understand the treatment the get form the sensei and the school. They assume all schools work on the Gendai platform, and are disgruntled do to the lack of understanding. The understanding of a Koryu school. Again some Gendai schools act the same way, either out of arrogance or tradition of old Japanese martial arts.

 

[chinto]

I have not had the problem of any kind of lack of courtesy myself.
I would disagree that all karate are gendai, as many of the okinawan styles predate the time line that is used to demarcate koryu from gendai arts. ( i am refering to the older Okinawan styles and not the modern Japanese styles in this.)

 

[JohnEdward]

The demarcation as I said was a Japanese chalk line for the reason that there are older Okinawa styles, but I don't know how the Japanese treat those older styles because Okinawa wasn't part of old Japan as the Japanese seen it.

 

[Indie12]

Just to clarify, I'm not a GM. The Sr. GM that you see, is the martial talk 'rank' that everyone gets, which goes on how many posts you have. I'm a 4th degree BB, and have many, many, many years to go, before I'd even want to be called GM. This talks a bit about it.



I have always been of the belief that respect is a 2 way street. I think its possible to give a respectful answer about someone, while at the same time, still being honest. It will probably sound like I'm being disrespectful because of what I'm saying. In other words, someone may say, "How could you say that about him? Thats not very nice." But, like I said, IMO, its the way its said, and if someone gets offended at an honest answer, well, I dont know what to tell them...lol.

LOL. Yeah, I wasn't sure what your 'name' was exactly. So, using your 'Martial Talk 'Rank' seemed like the only choice!

I would agree it's a two way streak, definitely. My thought is what if you haven't engaged in conversation (really) yet?