Kuroda's Grip?

[Telfer]

Help me understand something about this clip featuring Japanese Swordmaster Tetsuzan Kuroda:

Esp around the four minute mark you see him wield the bokuto with a VERY wide grip, which looks like far more than the 10-12 inches provided by a steel sword.

Is this a simulation of holding the blade above the guard?

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Telfer,

I'll deal with your question first, then some advice.

To begin with, Kuroda's grip is wide throughout the entire clip, which tells me that it's more to do with the design of the bokken in question, and a preference in his system. The idea that he would be holding the blade above the guard is frankly a little ludicrous. I just think that the bokken he is using have larger tsuka than you are familiar with.

To begin with, what do you mean when you say "far more than the 10-12 inches provided by a metal sword"? Which type of sword? Different types of Japanese sword over different time periods have favoured different dimensions for different reasons, and those used in battlefield combat did tend towards longer tsuka. This was due to the fact that the longer handle provided more leverage against armoured opponents, and gave more power to the cuts. Of course, it should also be recognised that the sword was never really a primary battlefield weapon, that role went to polearms primarily, such as Naginata and Yari, as well as Yumi.

Over time, the Japanese sword developed from double edged straight blades modelled on the Chinese, through to the curved Tachi (often with short tsuka and light blades as they were mostly used as a secondary single hand weapon on horseback. They later developed into the larger Tachi, as secondary battlefield weapons carried along with the more prefered Yari or other polearm. Some warriors chose to use very large Tachi, known as O Dachi, but these were the minority. In fact, most known O Dachi are thougth to be more temple offerings than usable weapons. Time went on, and the later Katana, paired with the Wakizashi, became the symbol of the Samurai. That was during peacetime, not battlefield combat, by the way. The Katana originated from the smaller sword paired with a Tachi, or just a smaller sword worn as a secondary weapon, thrust edge up through the obi in armour, and was called Uchi Katana (striking sword).

So as you can see, the style of sword changed over time, the larger tsuka were prefered in battlefield situations. In fact, the Kukishinden Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu swords follow this design (Kukishinden Ryu also having a double-handed short sword, called a Kodachi for much the same reasons). Other older schools espouse this type of design as well. So just by saying "a metal sword", you are missing a great deal of the history of the Japanese blade, and it's use. I have a few bokken myself which share similar design characteristics with the ones that Kuroda is using.

Now to the advice. From seeing how you have been posting over the last few weeks, I have noticed a few things. You are obviously interested in the differences between various things, but are getting far to caught up in the details, and missing what is important. And in this case, it is that none of this can possibly help you at all. The technical characteristics of Kuroda's appraoch to sword as opposed to what you think swordsmanship is supposed to be like (and I say that because you list MMA as your system, and I haven't seen any indication of any more classical training in your posts, let alone something like a sword art) are really nothing you should be concerned about. If you studied sword, and were interested in his reasons as opposed to the way you have been taught, that would be one thing, but the feeling I get here is that that is not the case. If you had a frame of reference, that would make this information relevant, unfortunately without the requisite understanding and experience, this is all just words. It is similar to trying to explain the subtle differences of Baroque versus Romantic music to someone who has only ever listened to rap...

So while your interest is admirable, in order for such questions to be of use to you, I would suggest go with broader questions, and get a baseline first. Such details as this won't really do anything. But even better, if you want to learn about swordsmanship (or anything else), get some experience. And that means getting an instructor. Then clips such as this will mean a lot more to you, and you will understand what it is you are watching.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Kuroda Sensei has some incredible movement and skill. I would love to have the opportunity to train with him! Fantastic movement!

 

[Telfer]

Kuroda's grip is wide throughout the entire clip, which tells me that it's more to do with the design of the bokken in question, and a preference in his system. The idea that he would be holding the blade above the guard is frankly a little ludicrous.

Thats what I would have thought...ludicrous. But at 3:10 and 4:26 he goes much further than a wide grip and actually grabs the blade up near the tip during blocking movements. Strange. I tried digging around for some bokutos with extra length in the grip and found only one at 14 inches.

You go on to say that understanding whats going on in the clip is not going to help me, and that I should ask more general questions, and so on.

I cant think of anything more general than how to hold the darn thing, but you're right its not going to help me. In fact, even if I became proficient with a steel sword thats not going to help me either...unless I planned on carrying it around all day.

People do all kinds of things in martial arts and life that arent going to help them. Doing a crossword puzzle, having an orgasm, eating a chocolate chop cookie, reading about weapons you have no intention of using...none of these things are going to help anyone. However, I dont control what others are interested in so I dont try to change that.

The real question is whether its going to help my cousin, who takes Aikido and asked me to make a bokuto for him.

Woodworking happens to be my trade, so he sent me this book called 'Bokken' by Dave Lowry (1986). He was adamant about having one with a low balance point, which means a heavy grip, and a while later sent me this clip asking 'what the hell is that?'

I'll be posting some pics in a week or two (in a thread I started called 'The Ideal Bokken') of a short trial version in hickory, which is in glue clamps as we speak...so dont open that thread if you're disturbed by people doing things that wont help them.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

In looking at the points you mentioned it appears he is just reinforcing the back/side of the blade. This is done at some point in most Japanese systems that study the sword that I have witnessed. Nothing odd and I will reiterate that his movement is fantastic.

 

[Legendary Wolf]

Hello Telfer,

By any chance, did you try and contact your cousin's Aikido teacher for any recommendations? That is usually the best route to take. Ryuugi base their designs for certain purposes, uses etc... Asking the direct teacher would prove helpful. With regards to Budo, we sometimes tend to do what we want to do and not what we need to do. If a style that you belong to uses a certain type of bokken or other training weapon, then that is the way it is. In the west generally, we try to modify or customize (and even costume-ize) budo to our own needs/wants.. Good luck, here is a a quick visual reference just in case..

http://bokkenshop.com/eng/style.html

 

[Ken Morgan]

I agree he is using the backside of the blade to reinforce the sword.

The moves he’s making can be made with a narrower grip too, there is no secret JSA stuff here. If you’re using a sword with a smaller tsuka, adjust your grip accordingly.

Is it just me or is the guy narrating the show annoying as all hell? I know the show is meant for the punters, but man…shut up all ready.

David Lowry’s book? No comment, but there are many better books out there.

If you’re making wooden weapons, (I am not selling anything), my sensei has been making weapons for twenty plus years, he’s got a crap load of articles over at EJMAS on various woods and on making weapons. This one specifically may help in your endeavour.
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor_1100.htm

 

[Brian King]

Kuroda is VERY fast and very precise in real life, video does not capture the speed and smoothness of his work. He was an instructor at one or two of the Aiki expos that went on a few years ago. I was not able to attend his classes due to attending others at the same time, but have heard from those that did and who continue to work with him that his hand to hand work is also very good, very soft and he and his students have excellent body awareness.

As far as grabbing the blade there is a big difference between grabbing and supporting/reinforcing. Many systems practice and train supporting and reinforcing using the back of the blade.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Telfer,

Thats what I would have thought...ludicrous. But at 3:10 and 4:26 he goes much further than a wide grip and actually grabs the blade up near the tip during blocking movements. Strange. I tried digging around for some bokutos with extra length in the grip and found only one at 14 inches.

Yeah, that would be about as long as you can find other than customised ones for specific ryu-ha. Still far longer than the average 10, and that changes things a fair bit.

You go on to say that understanding whats going on in the clip is not going to help me, and that I should ask more general questions, and so on.

I cant think of anything more general than how to hold the darn thing, but you're right its not going to help me. In fact, even if I became proficient with a steel sword thats not going to help me either...unless I planned on carrying it around all day.

Okay, maybe that wasn't expressed clearly. My point was more that asking specific questions about one singular approach (in this case, Kuroda's grip as opposed to other sword grips) is of no use unless you understand the basic grip in the first place. It's like picking up guitar fo the first time, and asking exactly how Jimmy Page does this particular lick in Black Dog. Without knowing how to play guitar, the information will be of no good to you. And your question is not about sword grip in general, it is about Kuroda's in particular, as it is different to what you have seen before. And that is irrelevant unless you are studying his system and want to understand the reasons. Does that make more sense?

Oh, and as for it not being useful at all unless you are going to be carrying one around, well, there are a huge number of benefits of training in swordwork that have nothing to do with combative effectiveness in this day and age. But you need to train it to get that, I feel.

People do all kinds of things in martial arts and life that arent going to help them. Doing a crossword puzzle, having an orgasm, eating a chocolate chop cookie, reading about weapons you have no intention of using...none of these things are going to help anyone. However, I dont control what others are interested in so I dont try to change that.

Well, doing a crossword helps you keep your mind sharp, and can increase your vocabulary and knowedge, eating a chocolate chip cookie can release endorphins resulting in pleasure, as well as giving a quick energy burst when needed, and as for having an orgasm? If that isn't helping you, you're probably not having one...

I'm not saying that asking questions is bad, or you should stop. In fact, quite the opposite. I prefer if people ask questions, but the questions need to be the right ones. Otherwise there is no reason. And in a number of your questions and posts, you seem to be jumping past your understanding, with no real context (we'll come back to that in a second), which means that your questions have no way of giving you the answers you are actually after.

I'm not trying to change what you are interested in. I think it's great that more people get interested in the sword arts, or martial arts, or anything at all, really. But if you jump to the end in your questions as you have been doing, then you will not actually get the information you will need to continue your interest, as you will not be able to really relate it to anything. So my point is not that you stop being interested, but that you look to the right aspects first. And in that way, you will gradually get the understanding to see these questions and their answers, and be able to put them together. By only getting the end-point questions, your interest will be short lived. It's the same as our earlier guitarist. If on his first day holding a guitar he asks to learn a Jimmy Page solo, he will be frustrated and disappointed, and give up. If he is taught some basic chords, however, and shown how to combine them into a basic song, he will feel better and keep playing longer. So my post was to give you a way to keep your interest longer, not the other way around.

The real question is whether its going to help my cousin, who takes Aikido and asked me to make a bokuto for him.

Okay, this is context. Without it, you will never get the right answers, as we will not know what you are asking. I suggest including a bit of this in your OPs in future, it'll help you and us.

Woodworking happens to be my trade, so he sent me this book called 'Bokken' by Dave Lowry (1986). He was adamant about having one with a low balance point, which means a heavy grip, and a while later sent me this clip asking 'what the hell is that?'

Cool. I know the book well, Dave goes on about his personal preference and a few other things. There's a bit of controversy surrounding Dave and that book, but that's not that important here. Just know that itis not to be considered the be-all end-all.

So he sent you the clip asking you what the bokken Kuroda was using was? And that's why you sent it to us? Okay. There was nothing even indicating the slightest part of that in your post. You asked about his grip, and later clarifyed that you were refering to a supported blade jam, or block, which is really not a grip so to speak. So what we have is a question which is not what you were really asking or wanting to know, and that is combined with a lack of knowledge of what you were watching in the first place (again, this is not to belittle you or your interest, just to point out the issues with jumping ahead in learning about these things). That is why context is so important.

I'll be posting some pics in a week or two (in a thread I started called 'The Ideal Bokken') of a short trial version in hickory, which is in glue clamps as we speak...so dont open that thread if you're disturbed by people doing things that wont help them.

Well, I've read your thread there as well, and again there is no context. I would suggest that you state that you are intending to make a bokken for your Aikido training cousin, and that you are a woodworker, and are asking for some feedback. It's no wonder you didn't get the answers you were after there either, no one knew what you were asking.

A few things on that, though. While I don't know your woodworking background, the creation of a bokken is quite different to most woodworking from what I have seen. Your first step should be to determine what methods are typically used to create such items. Next, invest in some bokken so you can model them (all the best I have come across started out copying ones they already had). Lastly, a bokken for Aikido is different to those used in other schools. They have no tsuba, are a bit thicker than others, and the kissaki is cut off for safety. Do a search for Iwama Ryu bokken to see what they are like. If it is for Aikido, that is probably the way to go.

I realise that your questions are stemming from not knowing what questions to ask. That is why I suggested that this line is not really going to help. I hope this has.

 

[Telfer]

In looking at the points you mentioned it appears he is just reinforcing the back/side of the blade. This is done at some point in most Japanese systems that study the sword that I have witnessed.

Thats interesting, perhaps thats why Japanese swords continued to be made with only one sharp edge....because of the blocking options.

 

[Telfer]

By any chance, did you try and contact your cousin's Aikido teacher for any recommendations?

No he already has a class approved weapon. What I'm making has a heavier grip because its laminated with Jatoba wood.

 

[Telfer]

my sensei has been making weapons for twenty plus years, he’s got a crap load of articles over at EJMAS on various woods and on making weapons. This one specifically may help in your endeavour.
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor_1100.htm

Thanks...I'm pleased to see he lists Bloodwood because I have access to some. I thought about using it because of its deep red colour, but then I remembered a very expensive lesson I learned making guitars. I went full tilt boogie on this one:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2hqgdg3.jpg

It has all the best of everything including a Bubinga neck, but it sounded like crap! The tone is too bright...meaning its overtone signature is top heavy. So I realized that beautiful expensive woods are not always best or functional for the purpose, which is why I choose hickory for the bokuto. Its a very elastic wood, often used for archery bows.

 

[Telfer]

Kuroda is VERY fast and very precise in real life, video does not capture the speed and smoothness of his work. He was an instructor at one or two of the Aiki expos that went on a few years ago.

What I find interesting about him is his lack of facial expression...its like he's playing poker...telegraphing nothing. Except you can see that he is nevertheless constantly alert.

 

[Telfer]

"It's like picking up guitar for the first time, and asking exactly how Jimmy Page does this particular lick in Black Dog. Without knowing how to play guitar, the information will be of no good to you." -Chris Parker

This is off topic, but strangely enough, thats exactly how Page himself learned to play guitar...by slowing down records and figuring out how Scotty Moore or Howlin Wolf played a certain riff. Most of his music is based on very simple licks, which are woven together to form something that sounds complicated and orchestral....kinda like MA Katas.

 

[Ken Morgan]

What I find interesting about him is his lack of facial expression...its like he's playing poker...telegraphing nothing. Except you can see that he is nevertheless constantly alert.

Thats how we train in iaido, kenjitsu and jodo. Reveal nothing, just explode.

 

[Telfer]

David Lowry’s book? No comment, but there are many better books out there.

You sound skeptical...so I went off looking for a critique and found this on Amazon reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Bokken-Japane...?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar

"Regardless the way he advises to hold the Bokken is somewhat horrid. Curl the pinky under the hilt? Am I missing something here or are you supposed to break your finger in the dojo? Also I have been instructed to not stick out your fingers as this can lead to getting them cut off. Although it is true Yagyu Kai do slightly keep the index finger loose the rest of Daves instructions to hold the sword are terrible. Any half azz Kendoka knows to squeeze in the wrists similar to turning a motorcycle throttle. I can not begin to explain the importance of turning in the wrists while holding a sword."

What he describes here is exactly as Lowry explains it...pinky curled under and index finger extended.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Lowry has never said what JSA he has every trained in. He’s a karate guy. His day job is as a food critic in St. Louis and as a writer.

There is much aikido sword stuff in the book. At the end of the book he hints at training in Katori.

Yeah…never leave your little finger off the bokken. No one does that. Holding and striking with a sword is done with the ring finger and the little finger of both hands.

The book is OK, but as I said, there are better books out there.

 

[Chris Parker]

The book actually gives Dave's schooling as Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, in the acknowledgements he talks about himself with the phrase "a Yagyu kenshi with blue eyes", and in About the Author, it states that he is "an author and a swordsman of the 21st generation of the Yagyu Shinkage tradition". Not sure about the Katori Ryu.

 

[Langenschwert]

In looking at the points you mentioned it appears he is just reinforcing the back/side of the blade. This is done at some point in most Japanese systems that study the sword that I have witnessed.

Indeed. I was taught it in JSA and medieval and renaissance European sword arts do that all the time.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Telfer]

Well, doing a crossword helps you keep your mind sharp, and can increase your vocabulary and knowedge, eating a chocolate chip cookie can release endorphins resulting in pleasure, as well as giving a quick energy burst when needed, and as for having an orgasm? If that isn't helping you, you're probably not having one.

Well, I've read your thread there as well, and again there is no context. I would suggest that you state that you are intending to make a bokken for your Aikido training cousin, and that you are a woodworker, and are asking for some feedback. It's no wonder you didn't get the answers you were after there either, no one knew what you were asking.

I make a distinction between pleasure and happiness, and between happiness and proficiency. They are very different principles and understanding those differences is of primary importance in life...never mind Martial arts.

I asked two questions in my other thread. Do you want a bokken with the same weight as your steel sword? And where is your ideal balance point relative to the guard?

The answers to these questions would be the same regardless of whether I'm making one or not, and I did get an answer with some good feedback from Ken Morgan on the subject, so it wasnt a wasted effort by any means.

And the same goes for your answer about Kuroda's grip. You suggest that I couldnt possibly get a correct answer without more context. But you did answer the question...and I assume your answer was correct.

So, if you feel a question shouldnt be asked...just dont answer it.
It will save you a lot of typing.