Kukishin-ryu

[kip42]

I have a friend who wants to teach me Kukishin-ruy. Has close to the bujinkan training does this relate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukishin-ryū

 

[Chris Parker]

I really don't know where to start with this..... and I have no idea what your second sentence is supposed to mean. Do you mean "HOW close is the Kukishin Ryu listed in the Wikipedia link to Bujinkan training?" If so, this could take a while....

The Kukishin Ryu is an old system with many, many branches, a number of which have found their way into the various X-Kan syllabus', with different specialities, but most featuring a fair amount of staff work. If you actually have a friend "wanting" to teach it to you, the first thing to ask them is where they got it from, and which line they are talking about (note: I don't believe you in the slightest, considering when you first arrived and were asking questions about if the Bujinkan was the baddest of all MA's, you were claiming to have a friend highly ranked in Koto Ryu, then ignored any questions for clarification... at best, you have a friend who has got some X-Kan training under his belt, most likely Bujinkan, and you're misinterpreting what is being said, at worst, you're a troll here to waste our time). Once you know which line it is, then we can start to get answers. At the moment, all we can say is that the various Kukishin lines are connected, but each have differences either large or small.

 

[Sanke]

Seeing as this thread has a fairly open title, may as well make the best of it
I've heard some armour described as Kukishin yoroi, or something to that effect, did Kukishin have a preferred style of armour they used?

Also, I've heard that system described as Kukishin and Kukishinden, is that a different system, does it refer to the weapons syllabus, or is it just a different pronunciation?

Just a few questions I've had about the system for a while, and this seems like a good opportunity

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh boy, you ready for this?

Kukishinden Ryu/Kukishin Ryu is quite a complicated subject to get into, especially as concerned in the X-Kans and the lines they hold. Let's see if I can keep it relatively simple.

There are a number of different branches, and the terminology used is different depending on the line itself, but for the sake of ease, the main line of the art is Kukishin Ryu (九鬼神&#27969, which means "Nine Demon God/Spirit School", and many of the branches use this form of the name, with some slight variation (Minaki-den Kukishin Ryu, Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Hontai Kukishin Ryu. Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu etc), with some lines that are descended from the Ryu using the term Kukishinden Ryu (九鬼神伝&#27969, with the "Den" refering to "transmitted" - in other words, a transmission from the Kukishin Ryu. That includes Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken, which is the line that Hatsumi holds.

Within the Bujinkan, the actual make-up of the art given the name "Kukishinden Ryu" actually comes from a range of different sources, with the Bojutsu, for instance, coming from at least two separate lines (Hontai Kukishin Ryu and Kijin Chosui Ryu), the unarmed coming from Kijin Chosui Ryu Kukishinden Ryu, and so on. As a result, the name used there shows the variety of Kukishin Ryu lines that come together.

When it comes to the armour, the website of the mainline have a picture of what they call "Kukishin Ryu Armour".. basically, it's an Okegawa Do Ni Mai Do, O Sode with Hoshi Bachi Kabuto and Kuwagata. In other words, a fairly standard Sengoku Jidai form of armour, with the exception of the O Sode, which were a hangover from the older O Yoroi, and kept for the higher ranked samurai.

Did that help?

 

[Supra Vijai]

There are a number of different branches, and the terminology used is different depending on the line itself, but for the sake of ease, the main line of the art is Kukishin Ryu (九鬼神&#27969, which means "Nine Demon God/Spirit School", and many of the branches use this form of the name, with some slight variation (Minaki-den Kukishin Ryu, Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Hontai Kukishin Ryu. Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu etc), with some lines that are descended from the Ryu using the term Kukishinden Ryu (九鬼神伝&#27969, with the "Den" refering to "transmitted" - in other words, a transmission from the Kukishin Ryu. That includes Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken, which is the line that Hatsumi holds.

We've been through this once or twice but just clarifying my understanding of some terminology if I may? Tenshin = Heavenly and Hyoho = Soldier's methods; is that correct? If so, would it be correct to translate the name as Heavenly methods of the Nine Demon God school?

 

[Chris Parker]

The characters refer to "Heavenly True" (Tenshin - 天&#30495 "Strategy" (Hyoho - 兵&#27861, however in Kukishin Tenshin Hyoho it takes on a number of other meanings, mainly religious in nature. For more detail, see this page: http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html Lots of very good information found there....

 

[Supra Vijai]

The characters refer to "Heavenly True" (Tenshin - 天&#30495 "Strategy" (Hyoho - 兵&#27861, however in Kukishin Tenshin Hyoho it takes on a number of other meanings, mainly religious in nature. For more detail, see this page: http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html Lots of very good information found there....

Thank you!

 

[Sanke]

Thanks for the clarification, I thought it would be something along those lines, but wasn't really sure. As far as lineages go, Kukishin seems to be one of the more complicated ones.

On another note, do the different lineages have a very different approach to weaponry? For example, do all the lines have the same or similar approach to swordsmanship, or do they vary considerably? I'm not sure if this is a stupid question or not, but I've only been exposed to the Kukishinden line of swordsmanship that (I believe) is most commonly associated with Ninjutsu, so I don't know much outside of that.

 

[Chris Parker]

There are large and small differences between the different lines, for example, the mainline uses a form of Jujutsu very similar to Takagi Yoshin Ryu (the two lines disagree as to who took it from whom.... although I would say that Takagi had it first, as the similarities to Takenouchi Ryu support the Takagi version of the history), whereas the Bujinkan line has a very different form of unarmed combat. When it comes to the weaponry, some lines of the Bojutsu are very similar, others vary, although the names are a giveaway, and other very Kukishin traits shine through as well (the spinning, and frequent sliding of the staff through the hands, for instance). With the Kenpo (sword methods), the cutting mechanics are pretty similar, and frequent use of upward and downward diagonal cutting show the lineage connection, but the actual kata are rather different. Just as an aside, though, you have seen a few of the kata from the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu (the mainline), if you don't remember....

 

[Sanke]

Just as an aside, though, you have seen a few of the kata from the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu (the mainline), if you don't remember....

Ah yes, you did say that in class when we were shown. Sorry, I tend to get very mixed up when it comes to which techniques are from what school, let alone what line. It's hard enough to keep two sword systems in my head as it is
That said, thank you for the more detailed description, concise as ever Hopefully it will all start to sink in more as my training continues. Thanks again!

 

[Jameswhelan]

...the mainline uses a form of Jujutsu very similar to Takagi Yoshin Ryu...

Kukishin ryu jujutsu and Takagi Yoshin ryu jujutsu are not the same and not similar, as a glance at the mokuroku will show.

In Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho (note, Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin ryu is a different school) the mokuroku of the omote no kata differs from the normal shoden no kata in Kukishin ryu jujutsu (i.e., starting with hoshi kage). This level includes some kata names that you also see in Takagi ryu jujutsu's omote no kata mokuroku (not all, and arranged differently). These are performed very, very differently from xkan Takagi Yoshin ryu (both Mizuta-den and Ishitani-den). Someone knowledgable in Takagi Yoshin ryu would find Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho's taijutsu omote no kata familiar but would not recognise the taijutsu of the subsequent levels as similar to Takagi Yoshin ryu.

With the Kenpo (sword methods), the cutting mechanics are pretty similar, and frequent use of upward and downward diagonal cutting show the lineage connection...

The kenpo of Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho and Kukishinden Happo Biken are not alike at all, either superficially or substantially. Much the same with other weapons too.

Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu (the mainline)

Again, Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin ryu (headed by Mr Tanemura) is not the same as Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho.

I'm in work at the moment and this is all I have time to write. Please don't construe my non-commenting on any of the rest as an endorsement of same (!).

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi James,

I'll defer to your knowledge on the mainline (and my apologies for the mix-up with the name... I'll try to avoid making the same mistake in the future!), however:

Kukishin ryu jujutsu and Takagi Yoshin ryu jujutsu are not the same and not similar, as a glance at the mokuroku will show.

In Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho (note, Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin ryu is a different school) the mokuroku of the omote no kata differs from the normal shoden no kata in Kukishin ryu jujutsu (i.e., starting with hoshi kage). This level includes some kata names that you also see in Takagi ryu jujutsu's omote no kata mokuroku (not all, and arranged differently). These are performed very, very differently from xkan Takagi Yoshin ryu (both Mizuta-den and Ishitani-den). Someone knowledgable in Takagi Yoshin ryu would find Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho's taijutsu omote no kata familiar but would not recognise the taijutsu of the subsequent levels as similar to Takagi Yoshin ryu.

My comments there are based on the footage I have seen of Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho Taijutsu as put out by the school, as well as the list on the official site, and the comments found there. The list of Taijutsu kata, while certainly not exactly the same as the Takagi Ryu, features quite a number of similarities, not just in the first (Omote) level, but in subsequent levels as well, including the naming of the various sections (http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html). For the record, I'm comparing it with the current lists of Mizuta-den and Ishitani-den, as well as the listing found in Takagi-Ryu Chugokui Mokuroku, a list of the Takagi Ryu from 1844 published by Dr Stephen Greenfield.

Additionally, the official site also states:

In terms of techniques, we can see close similarities between them in comparison with the lists of techniques(Mokuroku). The view of Takagi Ryu has it that techniques Yoshin Ryu adopted from Kukishin Ryu were exclusively those of weapons like Bojutsu, Naginata and Spear; but there are close similarities in Taijutsu(Jujutsu in Takagi Ryu) techniques as well; a close study is needed in this field.

(source: http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html)

All that said, however, obviously what I have seen is not the entire syllabus, so I will defer to your experience there.

The kenpo of Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho and Kukishinden Happo Biken are not alike at all, either superficially or substantially. Much the same with other weapons too.

A visual reference of what I was refering to is found here:

The superficial similarities I am noting, particularly in regard to the Kenpo, are in a prevalence of kesa giri and kiri age actions... a number of movements in there are similar (in a way) to things like Happo Giri and Shiho Giri (and more so some of the Sayu Gyaku variants) in the Bujinkan Happo Biken line. There are a few other details that I see, but perhaps it's in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Jameswhelan]

Yes I think the difference of opinion stems from a difference in perspective. I'm used to looking at mokuroku that are very close to Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho - much more like it than Takagi ryu's - and so consequently see Takagi ryu's mokuroku as, relativley speaking, unlike Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho's.

About the paragraph you quoted; the English is clunky and that paragraph isn't on the Japanese version of the site so I can't clean it up any, but the idea here is that by looking at the mokuroku side by side there are similarities in the level names (sabaki, shirabe, moguri, etc.) and that the reason for this is because Kukishin ryu's influence on Takagi ryu extended to jujutsu - not only weapons.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi James,

Yeah, agreed about the interpretation of that paragraph (interesting that it isn't on the Japanese version). My original point there was that the Takagi Ryu says that they only took the weaponry aspects of Kukishin Ryu, and that was only in the 3rd-4th generation, however the Kukishin Ryu site disputes that with claims of Kukishin documents being given to Takagi Oriemon, amongst other things. Honestly, I think they're all so inter-related that it's rather difficult to say definitively one way or the other, but at the very least the influence is pretty clear! Both are still fascinating styles, to say the least.

 

[Jameswhelan]

...Takagi Ryu says that they only took the weaponry aspects of Kukishin Ryu, and that was only in the 3rd-4th generation, however the Kukishin Ryu site disputes that with claims of Kukishin documents being given to Takagi Oriemon, amongst other things.

I think that dispute is too strong. The site is mearly presenting an alternate view based on early documents.

The document here is a list of licensees. Like keizu, these are often replete with characters from folklore and heroic literature mixed in with historical characters who's connection to the school is questionable and historical characters whose connection to the school can be verified. This kind of thing is normal.

If you look at this document you'll see the name Takagi Oriuemon Shigemitsu (i.e. not Takagi Oriuemon Shigenobu or Takagi Oriuemon Shigetoshi - a whole other thread that) clustered in the middle of a rogues' gallery of such characters. It's important to remember that Takagi Oriuemon is a character from heroic literature who became popular in Bakumatsu period literature, art etc. as an anti-establishment figure. Check who is listed as the founder of Takagi ryu in the 1844 Yamada-ha scroll? ;-)

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, agreed. And, yeah, I noticed the listed founder there (Takagi Umannosuke for those who don't have it), but that was already established (that he was sometimes considered the founder). We also have different lines of Kukishin Ryu claiming very different founders as well, which just further confuses the matter, although some of those claims are the lines in some Takagi Ryu lines (such as Hontai Yoshin Ryu, for instance).....

 

[Jameswhelan]

Ha, agreed. And, yeah, I noticed the listed founder there (Takagi Umannosuke for those who don't have it), but that was already established (that he was sometimes considered the founder). We also have different lines of Kukishin Ryu claiming very different founders as well, which just further confuses the matter, although some of those claims are the lines in some Takagi Ryu lines (such as Hontai Yoshin Ryu, for instance).....

Consider the dates when this or that claim for the founder of this or that ryu-ha or branch first emerged - whether branches of Takagi ryu or Kukishin ryu.

Let the chronology tell the story, as I always say, and a lot of the confusion about all this evaporates.

 

[Stealthy]

Let the chronology tell the story, as I always say, and a lot of the confusion about all this evaporates.

Any chance you could whip up a little timeline of the main branches and perhaps a few little key footnotes where necessary to help the uninitiated like myself get a better picture of how they all fit together?

 

[Ninja dad]

I have a friend who wants to teach me Kukishin-ruy. Has close to the bujinkan training does this relate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukishin-ryū

In short, and just to get back on track it doesn't.
kukishinden ryu is one of nine ryu taught in the Bujinkan system and thus is not actually taught on its own. I cannot speak for kukishin ryu which most definitely isn't.

Anyone who offers to teach you just one of the nine is, in my opinion, either talking out of their **** or not experienced enough to realise that teaching them out of context with either each other or without the context of the 'no kata' or elements woven through the whole of the Bujinkan system gives you only part of the story and is therefore insufficient.

Not everyone will like this opinion, but if you want to learn kukishinden ryu then go to a Bujinkan shihan.

 

[Supra Vijai]

In short, and just to get back on track it doesn't.
kukishinden ryu is one of nine ryu taught in the Bujinkan system and thus is not actually taught on its own. I cannot speak for kukishin ryu which most definitely isn't.

Anyone who offers to teach you just one of the nine is, in my opinion, either talking out of their **** or not experienced enough to realise that teaching them out of context with either each other or without the context of the 'no kata' or elements woven through the whole of the Bujinkan system gives you only part of the story and is therefore insufficient.

Not everyone will like this opinion, but if you want to learn kukishinden ryu then go to a Bujinkan shihan.

Where you will learn Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, not the ryu-ha anyway. (With regards to the part in bold)

That's also a fairly narrow view to say that anyone offering to teach just one is talking out of their ****. Whilst the Bujinkan might focus on interweaving bits and pieces from everything into the BBT system, that isn't the be all, end all method of teaching available for someone wanting to learn or specialize in one particular ryu. Rather than approaching all 9 ryu-ha as chapters of one big story, it might be worth recognizing they are more like 9 distinct stories that work together to impart a series of lessons - much like children's fables except, for killing things.